A cowboy church is "really different from a regular church"
The Tulsa area will get its first cowboy church this fall Oklahoma Fellowship of Cowboy Churches: “makin’ a difference in Oklahoma”
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Alex,
Don’t you think the church is called to inclusiveness? It seems, while this might be more inclusive for cowboys, it might be unnecessarily divisive to non-cowboys. Strikes me as along much the same vein as the thread awhile back about observing American holidays such as the 4th of July in the church.
Don’t you think the church is called to inclusiveness? It seems, while this might be more inclusive for cowboys, it might be unnecessarily divisive to non-cowboys. Strikes me as along much the same vein as the thread awhile back about observing American holidays such as the 4th of July in the church.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
[Alex Guggenheim]Now, I’m not saying I have a bible reason for everything I just said, but I do think it’s wise to look around and think why a church only has white skinned, white collar, families with kids 2-3 years old. If that’s the case, then it’s possible that there are divisions that are driving those people away. Divisiveness is the opposite of inclusiveness. I’m not talking about liberal form of inclusiveness at cost of truth. But there is a Christian inclusiveness that seeks to put background divisions in the background, and important unifying things like Christ in the foreground. I think it’s wise that churches not identify themselves as a “Cowboy” church to avoid an obvious unimportant distinction becoming the forefront of a church’s life.[Shaynus] The church should be striving to be somewhat diverse, or at least as diverse as it’s neighborhood.The Bible makes no such command or implies no such standard. Now, Cowboy Church maybe have its problems but it seems to me your responding prescription fails just as easily.
[Divisions in the Church]
[10] I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. [11] For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. [12] What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” [13] Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? [14] I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, [15] so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. [16] (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) [17] For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
(1 Corinthians 1:10-17 ESV)
Chip,
I do believe, as the LCMS church states regarding ecclesiastical culture that they cowboy church has problems:
I do believe, as the LCMS church states regarding ecclesiastical culture that they cowboy church has problems:
The church must develop and maintain its own cultural language that reflects the values and structures of the Scriptures and not of the current culture. This church language can only be shaped by a biblical theology which affirms the real presence of Jesus Christ in worship and our belief that this presence binds the culture together as a community. The context that shapes our distinct Lutheran ethos is Scripture, theology, and history. Local circumstance is secondary.But the inclusiveness of the gospel does not and should not assume congregational demographics and this assumption is never forwarded anywhere in Scripture.
[Shaynus]
Now, I’m not saying I have a bible reason for everything I just said, but I do think it’s wise to look around and think why a church only has white skinned, white collar, families with kids 2-3 years old.
I thought it was a Cowboy Church not a White church. Since when has white been synonymous with Cowboy?
Alex, I don’t know about your church, but our church strives to reach people of all ages, ethnicities, occupations, and social and/or economic backgrounds for Christ. Do you see a problem with that?
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Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
[Alex Guggenheim]If you want to evade the point, go ahead.[Shaynus]
Now, I’m not saying I have a bible reason for everything I just said, but I do think it’s wise to look around and think why a church only has white skinned, white collar, families with kids 2-3 years old.
I thought it was a Cowboy Church not a White church. Since when has white been synonymous with Cowboy?
[Shaynus][Alex Guggenheim]If you want to evade the point, go ahead.[Shaynus]
Now, I’m not saying I have a bible reason for everything I just said, but I do think it’s wise to look around and think why a church only has white skinned, white collar, families with kids 2-3 years old.
I thought it was a Cowboy Church not a White church. Since when has white been synonymous with Cowboy?
No, you attempted to equate the two which is exactly the point on which you err. I believe your assumptions or presumptions in this case are getting the best of you.
[Alex Guggenheim]The one’s I know of are as culturally diverse as the area they are in .. and yes - there are minority ranchers and especially ranch hands .. Down here the hispanic population is larger than “all white” ..[Shaynus]
Now, I’m not saying I have a bible reason for everything I just said, but I do think it’s wise to look around and think why a church only has white skinned, white collar, families with kids 2-3 years old.
I thought it was a Cowboy Church not a White church. Since when has white been synonymous with Cowboy?
One of the reasons I enjoy living here is that there seems to be no REAL regard for “color” .. people who are respected are ones that work hard and have a sense of independence .. Which can make a tough nut when it comes to presenting the gospel actually ..
“Diversity” is only as “diverse” as the “neighborhood”. Most of the cowboy churches I’m aware of do not use a “mega church” model … but rather seek to reach those near them. I can think of 5 within 45 minutes of me .. and those are just the ones I know about.
There may be cowboy churches that are just out for numbers .. but the ones I’ve had experience with truly started as a place where folks can present the gospel and disciple a segment of population who would never go to a “traditional” church ..
Are churches supposed to be homogenous? Are they all supposed to look the same? I thought a local church should reflect the mix of the neighborhood .. YEARS ago my husband sold pianos and organs .. Once he sold an organ to a small rural black church and we were invited for their Sunday Services .. CULTURALLY it was VERY different from our church .. SPIRITUALLY it was a joy to worship and be taught the the Word.
From his book Above All Earthly Powers
So it is that Paul declares that there ‘is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus’ (Gal. 3:28). And by extension, should we not also say that because we are all one in Jesus Christ, there is neither Builder nor Boomer, neither Xer nor child of the Millennium, city dweller or suburbanite, Westerner or Third Worlder? Exploiting generational distinctions in the pursuit of success … should be as offensive as exploiting racial differences for personal advantage … .Targeting one particular sub-set of society (even if it’s a large sub-set) in order to get people through the door of the church is exploitation. According to Wells, even though that church may be preaching the gospel; it is not modeling the gospel if it gives preference to one type of person over another.
The church is not only to declare the gospel, but to model its truth, and if it does not model the truth it will undermine what it declares as truth… .
[Brenda T] According to Wells, even though that church may be preaching the gospel; it is not modeling the gospel if it gives preference to one type of person over another.I agree!
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[Alex Guggenheim]You’re going to have to try better at arguing your point (whatever it is). Alex, I don’t equate them. I’m giving a present illustration that may effect more of us than local cowboys. No community is homogeneous in America, and as soon as we say on our church sign that “we are a ________ church” and that _________ isn’t something to do with doctrinal distinctives or focus, then it’s a bad _______.[Shaynus][Alex Guggenheim]If you want to evade the point, go ahead.[Shaynus]
Now, I’m not saying I have a bible reason for everything I just said, but I do think it’s wise to look around and think why a church only has white skinned, white collar, families with kids 2-3 years old.
I thought it was a Cowboy Church not a White church. Since when has white been synonymous with Cowboy?
No, you attempted to equate the two which is exactly the point on which you err. I believe your assumptions or presumptions in this case are getting the best of you.
http://www.ofccranch.com/index.cfm?page=1] In the state of Oklahoma, 84% of the population do not go to church. there are many reasons for this, but the one we hear about each and every day in our Western Heritage lifestyle is that they don’t feel comfortable in any of the churches that are in their area. We have a chance to reconnect the working roots of Oklahoma back with God through Cowboy Churches. these churches have a unique style that help everyone feel comfortable.
The Setting: Arena, Barn, Sale yard, or just under a cool shade tree.
The Environment: Come as you are!
The Attitude: Faith * Family * Friends * Fellowship * Fun
The Preaching: Simple life stories using scriptures to relate the story back to the Bible.
I could understand if churches in an area heavily populated by folks in a certain industry catered to them by scheduling services and activities around the demands of that industry. But the above quote from the website seems like plain ol’ marketing and gimmicks.
The description of some churches make people sound like the princess in The Princess and the Pea- if there is a splinter in a pew 3 rows back, they still feel it, and it makes them ‘uncomfortable’.
[Shaynus] No community is homogeneous in America,{/quote]
In my experience, many communities are VERY homogeneous.and as soon as we say on our church sign that “we are a ________ church” and that _________ isn’t something to do with doctrinal distinctives or focus, then it’s a bad _______.
I agree with this, but the fact remains that churches in an area will reflect the culture and general population make-up of that area. A few folks will drive a far distance to attend a church that they believe is a good ‘fit’ for them, but again, in my experience, most folks are going to attend within a 20-minute-drive radius. If a community is predominantly white, or Asian, or Hispanic, or African-American; or located in an inner city, or suburb, or rural area, then the churches in those communities are not being exclusive by not trying to draw in more ‘diversity’ simply for the sake of diversity.
It’s no more off-base, IMO, than pastors on 9/11 preaching a message that reflected what was on the hearts and minds of their congregants. Or using high-tech contraptions in a town where the major employer is a techno-giant. Or not using advanced tech if most of the congregation are poorly educated/low income. Or leaning towards illustrations and analogies about farming and animal husbandry in an agrarian community.
It seems like a cause-effect question- is church culture naturally formed by those who attend from that community, or is a ‘culture’ chosen and then used as a marketing gimmick?
The description of the preaching is even more problematic to me than the “cowboy” aspect. Too bad God didn’t inspire stories instead of boring old Scriptures. Maybe more people would be willing to give God a hearing. Sticking with plain old Scripture is such –— foolishness!
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
[Susan R][Shaynus] No community is homogeneous in America,{/quote]I agree with everything you said. Cause should not be confused with effect. But if there is an effect, one should look around for possible causes. I live in one of the most diverse communities in the world. We have the single largest Afghan community here in Alexandria, VA than anywhere outside of Afghanistan (about 10,000). Is the reason we don’t have any Afghans coming because we’re racist towards them? No, it’s more complex than that. But we did have an Afghan (former Taliban who had fought against the Russians, current Muslim) visit once, and he loved it.
In my experience, many communities are VERY homogeneous.and as soon as we say on our church sign that “we are a ________ church” and that _________ isn’t something to do with doctrinal distinctives or focus, then it’s a bad _______.
I agree with this, but the fact remains that churches in an area will reflect the culture and general population make-up of that area. A few folks will drive a far distance to attend a church that they believe is a good ‘fit’ for them, but again, in my experience, most folks are going to attend within a 20-minute-drive radius. If a community is predominantly white, or Asian, or Hispanic, or African-American; or located in an inner city, or suburb, or rural area, then the churches in those communities are not being exclusive by not trying to draw in more ‘diversity’ simply for the sake of diversity.
It’s no more off-base, IMO, than pastors on 9/11 preaching a message that reflected what was on the hearts and minds of their congregants. Or using high-tech contraptions in a town where the major employer is a techno-giant. Or not using advanced tech if most of the congregation are poorly educated/low income. Or leaning towards illustrations and analogies about farming and animal husbandry in an agrarian community.
It seems like a cause-effect question- is church culture naturally formed by those who attend from that community, or is a ‘culture’ chosen and then used as a marketing gimmick?
We’re pretty white, but we do have folks come in from immigrant or ethnic backgrounds and stay. We want to always be looking for ways we’re driving people of other cultures away. We won’t always know why some people come and others don’t. But if we said we are a church that “is reaching young urban hipsters” for the gospel we would be causing unnecessary division. That’s all I’m saying.
Discussion