"Over the last few years some former pastors and leaders in Sovereign Grace have made charges against me ..."
[Dan Burrell] I am a pastor in the shadow of two of the churches found in Detwiler’s documents. Our church is located between the “Grace Community Church of Mooresville” (now defunct) and Crossway Community Church in Charlotte. In recent months, we have had multiple families come into our church reeling from what they have been experiencing in these SGM churches and I am currently counseling several of them as they struggle to regain their spiritual equilibrium. This sudden splash of Detwiler’s wikileak blogs and Mahaney’s stepping down has brought even more front and center in a sort of crisis of who they are and what they believe.Dan,
Detwiler exposes a “system” that indeed is nearly cultic in terms of the level of control and the “sin sniffing” process that they constantly practice. There is a bizarre fixation on spiritual confrontation, an unorthodox view of apostolic ministry/leadership and a misplaced focus on certain facets of the gospel to the exclusion of other parts that is genuinely problematic from my perspective. (And I’m not even dealing with the charismatic theology which is prevalent as well.) Detwiler’s copious notes and detailed narrative struck me as odd beyond belief and yet, having now counseled some of these dear folks, I now realize that it is part of the “system”. It’s, in my opinion, a hybrid of Roman Catholic confession and Scientologist auditing and makes folks extremely vulnerable to betrayal, manipulation and even blackmailing.
I was very unfamiliar with Sovereign Grace Ministries, Mahaney, Harris, et. al., but I have spent numerous hours pouring over what I have found on the internet to quickly bring myself up to speed. Now in the midst of working with some of the “survivors” themselves on a personal level, I would affirm that something MAJOR is amiss with how they “shepherd” and “confront” in the name of the Gospel and I have found it fully unhealthy spiritually, emotionally and psychologically for a majority of these folks. I don’t claim to be an expert on this, but now dealing with is as I am, I must say that there IS reason for great concern and caution in how we partner or embrace the products of SGM’s way of practicing their faith.
I would ask for prayers that I might have wisdom in dealing with some of these folks who honestly act like they are recovering from a spiritual/emotional trauma. It is one of the most unusual things I’ve encountered in nearly 30 years of ministry.
You’ve built up a lot of trust here over the years, so your post has great credibility. I was hoping that this was being exagerated. I am distressed to hear what you say. I will pray for you and those you are trying to help. And I will now be praying even more for these folks at SGM, that this will open their eyes to where they are out of balance.
Mike D
So C.J. Mahaney confesses:
Here is what they experienced from me:Has anyone else seen these things in their church leadership but minus any semblance of repentance?
* I was difficult to entreat.
* I sinfully judged their motives.
* I was arrogantly confident in my perception.
* I compared myself favorably to them.
* I was offended by what I thought to be a lack of appreciation from them for all I had done for them, and a lack of care for me in a season of trials.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
[Ron Bean] So C.J. Mahaney confesses:Yes. This characterizes the majority of pastors I’ve met/known/sat under in the IFBx/Hammond crowd. And a few big names in mainstream Fundamentalism as well.Here is what they experienced from me:Has anyone else seen these things in their church leadership but minus any semblance of repentance?
* I was difficult to entreat.
* I sinfully judged their motives.
* I was arrogantly confident in my perception.
* I compared myself favorably to them.
* I was offended by what I thought to be a lack of appreciation from them for all I had done for them, and a lack of care for me in a season of trials.
http://virginiaknowles.blogspot.com/2011/07/my-thoughts-on-cj-mahaney-a…
[post] I will say that I was noticing enough “red flags” to really bother me, primarily in home groups, women’s events, congregational meetings, and church discipline situations. In addition, I experienced periodic depression and anxiety, which I attribute in part to an atmosphere of neo-Puritan “worm mentality” and fear… . If even a fraction of what has been reported is true, I personally think his behavior has disqualified him from ever returning to a prominent position in ministry. And I don’t think that his peers are qualified to restore him to it, since by many accounts they too have been complicit in this sorry situation for a long time. Extending grace is one thing, but restoring real trust is quite another.
is far too big a leap.
The blogger linked to in comment #64 added an update to that post today.
P.S. #4 on July 14: A friend reminded me by e-mail that I would want my children to look at my life through a thick lens of grace if they were writing about me in public, and that I would not want a response from others of “too little, too late.” As she writes, “According to Scripture, anyone is only one step away from God – a step of repentance. So, please be careful what you say and send out. You will reap what you sow.” That is all so true. Thank you for your reminder. It is a sobering thought.
@ Mike Durning, I appreciate your ministry experience post in #51. As I’m reading through small portions of the internet documents available, it helps me filter through some of the things I’m reading from both sides. I’m ashamed to admit it, but as a layperson, I’ve run the gamut of some of those feelings people experience when they’re (I’m sinfully) displeased with leadership or the scant times I’ve personally been sinned against, intentional or not, by leadership. Having you succinctly lay out, from a leadership position, your experience helps to put things into a perspective from a third party individual that is not so close to “home.” Helpful!
Can I just say as messed up as this sounds, I think it can, not always be a good thing when I’m sinned against by leadership as long as it’s not some of the patterned abuse or neglect charges a few of these people have claimed in their SGM experience? Leaders are human, it’s ludicrous to think they won’t sin in some way or another—maybe even over a period of time. But leaders sinning personally in my life—whether it’s in a conversation or shepherding or decision-making means they’re actually involved in my life and not just some figurehead… like the Queen or Bono. The upside is they’re working through their own challenges, being chastened by a loving Father for their own issues and on and on… I think the Bible calls some of that growing and maturing. God has permitted my own sin to sharpen the people around me, including leadership, all the while firmly disciplining me as well. He’s just that big, loving… and creative. It’s hard to think about if grace and forgiveness had not been extended to me.
Leaders may not say things perfectly, they may not do things perfectly, but if they are loving, caring, protective shepherds personal to me and my family, and their own local church, we will see and experience their sin and messiness as they continue to grow in the Lord. We, as laypeople, should be not astonished when it comes (might some of that be born out of a possible idolizing?), but humbly reflect and vigilantly pray for them. (sidebar: IMO, leadership sins and mistakes may appear larger than they appear in the rear view life mirror.) The Bible has some very clear instructions when this happens that can result in some very nice character and endurance training for me such as fortifying trust in a sovereign Lord, denying one’s own needs/wants for the sake of unity, submission, preferences and double honor (double honor is specific to leadership,) stretching and extending grace, love, and fervency for one another, building the virtue of patience as people are long suffering and forbearing with one another. Again, before I leave this thought, I hope I’m just giving another side of the topic and not sounding like I’m advocating anyone must endure longtime abuse or heinous crimes against their person, family, or children. The Bible has some clear guidelines about how parents are to protect their families and children. I’m just trying to give another face of the topic from a layperson’s view.
Honestly, I’m surprised at how little Scripture references there are on either side of the debates while traipsing through the material on the internet. With some of the things I’ve read, I’ve seen “this is my experience” and “this is how it made me feel” or “this was the result” but very little (not none) with the words “since the Bible commands this, I did this”, etc. Maybe I’m just naive or ignorant about what’s really out there. I’m definitely ignorant and naive about what it’s really like from a leader’s perspective. I know there are some amazing leaders on the SI forum. I’d love to be corrected on either subject if I am mistaken. I’d also like it if someone could direct me to a/some good, strong biblical case(s) made from either side of the SGM arguments. Has anyone come across some good (reputable?) conversations/debates from blogs/articles where Scripture was the reigning authority in what they ended up doing, feeling, saying on either side?
FWIW, I would have to agree that it’s a little too early to decide disqualification status.
Blessings, :)
Kim
Can I just say as messed up as this sounds, I think it can, not always be a good thing when I’m sinned against by leadership as long as it’s not some of the patterned abuse or neglect charges a few of these people have claimed in their SGM experience? Leaders are human, it’s ludicrous to think they won’t sin in some way or another—maybe even over a period of time. But leaders sinning personally in my life—whether it’s in a conversation or shepherding or decision-making means they’re actually involved in my life and not just some figurehead… like the Queen or Bono. The upside is they’re working through their own challenges, being chastened by a loving Father for their own issues and on and on… I think the Bible calls some of that growing and maturing. God has permitted my own sin to sharpen the people around me, including leadership, all the while firmly disciplining me as well. He’s just that big, loving… and creative. It’s hard to think about if grace and forgiveness had not been extended to me.
Leaders may not say things perfectly, they may not do things perfectly, but if they are loving, caring, protective shepherds personal to me and my family, and their own local church, we will see and experience their sin and messiness as they continue to grow in the Lord. We, as laypeople, should be not astonished when it comes (might some of that be born out of a possible idolizing?), but humbly reflect and vigilantly pray for them. (sidebar: IMO, leadership sins and mistakes may appear larger than they appear in the rear view life mirror.) The Bible has some very clear instructions when this happens that can result in some very nice character and endurance training for me such as fortifying trust in a sovereign Lord, denying one’s own needs/wants for the sake of unity, submission, preferences and double honor (double honor is specific to leadership,) stretching and extending grace, love, and fervency for one another, building the virtue of patience as people are long suffering and forbearing with one another. Again, before I leave this thought, I hope I’m just giving another side of the topic and not sounding like I’m advocating anyone must endure longtime abuse or heinous crimes against their person, family, or children. The Bible has some clear guidelines about how parents are to protect their families and children. I’m just trying to give another face of the topic from a layperson’s view.
Honestly, I’m surprised at how little Scripture references there are on either side of the debates while traipsing through the material on the internet. With some of the things I’ve read, I’ve seen “this is my experience” and “this is how it made me feel” or “this was the result” but very little (not none) with the words “since the Bible commands this, I did this”, etc. Maybe I’m just naive or ignorant about what’s really out there. I’m definitely ignorant and naive about what it’s really like from a leader’s perspective. I know there are some amazing leaders on the SI forum. I’d love to be corrected on either subject if I am mistaken. I’d also like it if someone could direct me to a/some good, strong biblical case(s) made from either side of the SGM arguments. Has anyone come across some good (reputable?) conversations/debates from blogs/articles where Scripture was the reigning authority in what they ended up doing, feeling, saying on either side?
FWIW, I would have to agree that it’s a little too early to decide disqualification status.
Blessings, :)
Kim
And somehow that brings us to this week’s announcement from Mr. Mahaney. Many people who haven’t read any of the blogs (and the hundreds of pages of assorted uploaded documentation) have started congratulating him for being so very humble and honorable to come forward. I seriously don’t believe that such praise is warranted in this sobering time. And unfortunately, I think his announcement is way too little, way too late. He speaks as if he intends to take a short sabbatical season away from his duties so that his offenses against a group of select disaffected former pastors can be evaluated and corrected by a team of men. Then he wants to return and lead SGM into a future of fruitful ministry. Hello?!? If even a fraction of what has been reported is true, I personally think his behavior has disqualified him from ever returning to a prominent position in ministry. And I don’t think that his peers are qualified to restore him to it, since by many accounts they too have been complicit in this sorry situation for a long time.
I should hope that any pastor who has stepped aside for this kind of a thing would hope to return to his pulpit eventually. I don’t think there’s anything nefarious in wanting that; part of the qualifications for a pastor is that he earnestly desires the office of a pastor (I Tim 3.1).
I’m not going to go diving into all of these reports on Scribd, but it does sound like there are problems, and that SGM is working on resolving them with the help of an outside agency (although I can’t remember the name of it right now). So I’m not prepared to start saying thing like CJ Mahaney should never return to SGM ever again. And I do still think that we ought to take some of these reports with a grain of salt, as I noted in http://sharperiron.org/comment/32315#comment-32315] post #22 .
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
I think we ought to contrast that above quote http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2011/07/07/c-j-mahaney… with what CJ said :
He also said:
Finally, that ‘short sabbatical season’ described by Virginia is actually a full year away from SGM. That’s hardly ‘short’.
So here is what I am going to do. I’ve asked to take a leave of absence in order to give time to considering these charges, examine my heart, and receive the appropriate help from others. With the guidance of the SGM board, I would also hope to pursue reconciliation with former pastors of Sovereign Grace during this leave. I have stepped off the board and I will not be the President of Sovereign Grace Ministries during this period of examination and evaluation. In order for me to receive an objective evaluation in relation to these charges the board is securing the help of a third-party ministry that has no history of relationship with SGM. With counsel from that ministry, the board will determine the appropriate steps I should take going forward. After processing these findings, the board will determine the appropriate steps I should take going forward. This leave of absence will also help remove any impediment to the panel’s exploration that could potentially arise if I remained in my current position, and it will enable me to fully cooperate in the process.
He also said:
One more thing. For the past 5 years or so I have become increasingly aware of certain deficiencies in my leadership that have contributed to deficiencies in Sovereign Grace Ministries’ structure and governance, the lack of a clear and consistent process of conflict resolution and pastoral evaluation, and the number of former Sovereign Grace pastors who are offended with me/SGM. I have met with some and by God’s grace there has been reconciliation with men like Larry Tomczak (I wish I had recognized and repented of my sin against him years ago).
Finally, that ‘short sabbatical season’ described by Virginia is actually a full year away from SGM. That’s hardly ‘short’.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[skjnoble] @ Mike Durning, I appreciate your ministry experience post in #51. As I’m reading through small portions of the internet documents available, it helps me filter through some of the things I’m reading from both sides. I’m ashamed to admit it, but as a layperson, I’ve run the gamut of some of those feelings people experience when they’re (I’m sinfully) displeased with leadership or the scant times I’ve personally been sinned against, intentional or not, by leadership. Having you succinctly lay out, from a leadership position, your experience helps to put things into a perspective from a third party individual that is not so close to “home.” Helpful!Dear Kim,
Can I just say as messed up as this sounds, I think it can, not always be a good thing when I’m sinned against by leadership as long as it’s not some of the patterned abuse or neglect charges a few of these people have claimed in their SGM experience? Leaders are human, it’s ludicrous to think they won’t sin in some way or another—maybe even over a period of time. But leaders sinning personally in my life—whether it’s in a conversation or shepherding or decision-making means they’re actually involved in my life and not just some figurehead… like the Queen or Bono. The upside is they’re working through their own challenges, being chastened by a loving Father for their own issues and on and on… I think the Bible calls some of that growing and maturing. God has permitted my own sin to sharpen the people around me, including leadership, all the while firmly disciplining me as well. He’s just that big, loving… and creative. It’s hard to think about if grace and forgiveness had not been extended to me.
Leaders may not say things perfectly, they may not do things perfectly, but if they are loving, caring, protective shepherds personal to me and my family, and their own local church, we will see and experience their sin and messiness as they continue to grow in the Lord. We, as laypeople, should be not astonished when it comes (might some of that be born out of a possible idolizing?), but humbly reflect and vigilantly pray for them. (sidebar: IMO, leadership sins and mistakes may appear larger than they appear in the rear view life mirror.) The Bible has some very clear instructions when this happens that can result in some very nice character and endurance training for me such as fortifying trust in a sovereign Lord, denying one’s own needs/wants for the sake of unity, submission, preferences and double honor (double honor is specific to leadership,) stretching and extending grace, love, and fervency for one another, building the virtue of patience as people are long suffering and forbearing with one another. Again, before I leave this thought, I hope I’m just giving another side of the topic and not sounding like I’m advocating anyone must endure longtime abuse or heinous crimes against their person, family, or children. The Bible has some clear guidelines about how parents are to protect their families and children. I’m just trying to give another face of the topic from a layperson’s view.
Honestly, I’m surprised at how little Scripture references there are on either side of the debates while traipsing through the material on the internet. With some of the things I’ve read, I’ve seen “this is my experience” and “this is how it made me feel” or “this was the result” but very little (not none) with the words “since the Bible commands this, I did this”, etc. Maybe I’m just naive or ignorant about what’s really out there. I’m definitely ignorant and naive about what it’s really like from a leader’s perspective. I know there are some amazing leaders on the SI forum. I’d love to be corrected on either subject if I am mistaken. I’d also like it if someone could direct me to a/some good, strong biblical case(s) made from either side of the SGM arguments. Has anyone come across some good (reputable?) conversations/debates from blogs/articles where Scripture was the reigning authority in what they ended up doing, feeling, saying on either side?
FWIW, I would have to agree that it’s a little too early to decide disqualification status.
Blessings, :)
Kim
That was a great post, and a great blessing to me.
Thanks,
Mike D
Having read many of the websites about this issue in the past few days and having a vested interest in CJ and SGM because they do have a rather wide influence upon God’s people he has allowed me to lead (many of our young people especially have been influenced by Josh Harris and CJ Mahaney’s books). I am concerned about some things other than whether or not CJ Mahaney should step down, how long, etc, etc. I hope that it is not inappropriate for me to ask a question that might be a little off base from the original article. As I began diving into SGM land, I discovered what I believe to be far too common among many ministries be they fundamentalists or evangelicals. And this issue has been around for a long time. Is there a difference between “accountability” and “sin-sniffing”? That is actually what bothered me the most about the documents written by Detwiler. I read about how they were concerned that CJ was not receiving their “criticisms” with humility. Ok, so that is not a good thing. But the tone of the documents made it seem like the purpose of accountability within the “apostolic” leadership was to find each other’s weaknesses and expose it. Granted for the purpose of “bettering” one another Spiritually, but still it smacks totally of a misunderstanding of Matthew 7. So I have been wrestling with this. Where is the balance in helpful, encouraging accountability and “sin-sniffing”? Where is the line? Is confrontation (as we typically understand it) even Biblical? My wrestling with these things is because I went to a Fundamental college where this same kind of thing was encouraged. Maybe not explicitly, but implicitly, we were to confess to one another and if we didn’t then we should give one another “24 hours to turn themselves in.” Where is the grace of letting the Spirit of God work in me and my brother and trusting God to change him rather than taking it upon myself to change everyone? These are genuine questions, they are not loaded. How does restoration and confrontation relate? Are their limits upon that which we should/must confront one with? We have been starting “care groups” in our church, but I have become concerned that these groups don’t become a witch hunt to root out one each others sins and weaknesses. Is it okay for me to know a brother has a pride problem and to pray for him, love him, have a Bible study with him? or must I confront him, demand a certain level of confession, and then inflict punitive consequences? If anyone would like to interact in these things, I am open.
Is it okay for me to know a brother has a pride problem and to pray for him, love him, have a Bible study with him? or must I confront him, demand a certain level of confession, and then inflict punitive consequences?My quick 2-cents:
I’ve always felt like a big part of the line is in where we get the knowledge of those sins. I believe we ought to confront each other’s sins, but it doesn’t ever seem to be suggested that we should be walking around searching out problems (especially without a relationship with those other people.)
You’re welcome. Our Lord is kind to save. :)
Thanks for that post Kim- much appreciated.
We all have our double standards. We tend to expect from others what we do not demand from ourselves. In all my years of moderating Christian forums, I’d say 99.9% of responses to moderator nudges range from “You are wrong- go away” to “You are a disgrace to Christianity and should be shot”. We DO NOT love correction. I’m ashamed of the times when someone tried to point out a problem to me and I haughtily dismissed them out of hand. And it is still within me to do so again- may God help me.
Mr. Mahaney’s ministry, and thus his actions, have a far-reaching influence, so I understand the hubbub. But when we are so dependent on ‘great men’ for guidance that their failings register an 8.5 on the Christian Richter Scale, we have other questions we need to be asking ourselves.
We all have our double standards. We tend to expect from others what we do not demand from ourselves. In all my years of moderating Christian forums, I’d say 99.9% of responses to moderator nudges range from “You are wrong- go away” to “You are a disgrace to Christianity and should be shot”. We DO NOT love correction. I’m ashamed of the times when someone tried to point out a problem to me and I haughtily dismissed them out of hand. And it is still within me to do so again- may God help me.
Mr. Mahaney’s ministry, and thus his actions, have a far-reaching influence, so I understand the hubbub. But when we are so dependent on ‘great men’ for guidance that their failings register an 8.5 on the Christian Richter Scale, we have other questions we need to be asking ourselves.
[Susan R]My question would be, “How could we not expect this to happen given the most popular church polities in America?”
Mr. Mahaney’s ministry, and thus his actions, have a far-reaching influence, so I understand the hubbub. But when we are so dependent on ‘great men’ for guidance that their failings register an 8.5 on the Christian Richter Scale, we have other questions we need to be asking ourselves.
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
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