Alcoholic Beverages

[Susan R] We’ve had some threads in the past year or so on this issue- you might want to take a look at them and see if any of your questions are answered there.

http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-what-does-scripture-say-about-use-o…] What Does The Scripture Say About The Use of Alcohol?

http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-sword-of-lord-blasts-new-bju-press-…] Sword of the Lord blasts new BJU Press book on alcohol

http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-some-thoughts-beverage-alcohol] Some thoughts on beverage alcohol

http://sharperiron.org/article/now-about-those-differences-part-nine] Now, About Those Differences, Part Nine

http://sharperiron.org/filings/11-11-10/16966] Piper on the disconnect between the holiness and majesty of God; and movies, modesty and alcohol consumption

[ChrisC] don’t try to win every argument on the internet. you will find an endless supply of people who are wrong. i think someone who talks about the gospel over a drink is doing more good than the other guy that was harassing people in the mall. he might also be talking with people your street preaching would never reach.

[ChrisC]

[jwolf6589] Are you trying to say that drinking is okay?

this is a loaded question and one that isn’t easily answered in this format. besides, there are many people that have answered this question far better than i could. i’d recommend gentry’s book on the subject.

[Charlie] John,

You believe that how a person handles himself regarding alcohol is significant; so do I. Because there are consequences to our decisions, it is vital that we acquire and transmit accurate information. We need scholarship, by which I mean two things: 1) the use of reputable sources and 2) the responsible use of those sources.

I’m afraid to say that your piece, though offering a good deal of information, does not meet either of those two standards. I’ll deal with #1 first: I notice that, in your entire piece, you never once quote from a classicist or historian. The closest you come is quoting Robert Stein, whose factual statements have been criticized and contradicted by people who are classicists and historians. You are of course free to use Stein, but you do not show any awareness that his findings are disputed. That is a failure to do good scholarship. Also, key points of your argument are unsupported by your sources. The contention that wine was used to purify water does not have a source. You may quote Stein, but he does not offer a source. In fact, historical studies have shown that the ancients did not consciously purify water with alcohol; in every reference to mixing wine with water, it is for the sake of improving the taste of the wine, not the safety of the water. (Ancient wine was far stronger in flavor density than our wine; it needed to be diluted to be palatable. Some of the dilution was aesthetic preference.) Your uncritical acceptance of a thesis, despite the lack of source evidence and availability of studies to the contrary, is unscholarly. Finally, despite your assertion on this thread that you “state facts on both sides of the argument,” the truth is that you don’t have a single source written by a Christian scholar who heartily approves drinking in moderation. You can’t be taken seriously with that sort of bias.

Now, onto #2: You frequently distort your sources or employ them inappropriately in your argument. You make this historical statement: “There is plenty of evidence to prove support that the wine in bible times was very different than the wine of today.” Assuming you’re using Stein as your source, I must point out that the title of his work is “Wine Drinking in New Testament Times.” The New Testament timeline is only a small fraction of the Bible. Did you do any research on Hebrew drinking in the Old Testament? If you had, you may have found http://www.scribd.com/doc/16092246/Wine-StrengthDT] a paper by Isaiah Cox asserting that Hebrews drank their alcohol straight until Greek culture became dominant. Whether or not they did, your failure to look into the situation undermines your position and caused you to distort your sources.

Concerning your marshaling of scientific evidence, you make some questionable moves. You have only one source that addresses the long-term effects of moderate drinking, and it is overwhelmingly positive. However, you dismiss it: “There are supposedly other medical benefits to the drinking of alcoholic beverages, but the issue with these sources is that they do not seem to be entirely clear on their research, and their findings may be a bit too skeptical.” I don’t know how their finding are “skeptical.” I think you may have misused that word. It seems that you simply don’t like the article. All the other resources you quote primarily concern the effects of long-term alcohol abuse; as such, they are tangential to your discussion. In fact, the “Your Brain on Alcohol” article twice expressly states that moderate drinkers do not exhibit the brain rewiring that most of the article describes. Your inability or unwillingness to distinguish between research on alcohol and on alcoholism robs your work of credibility. Finally, your highly selective appeal to Scripture is unhelpful. By contrast, http://chetday.com/alcoholandthebible.htm this article “Alcohol and the Bible” tabulates all the references to alcoholic beverages in the Bible, drawing conclusions from that basis. (The tabulation is more useful than the following discussion.)

My point, John, is that you seem to be a good guy who wants to influence your world for Christ. I support you. However, when you write on an important topic, even if it’s not for an academic audience, you still need to be scholarly, in the sense that you consult reputable sources and use those sources responsibly. Until you do that, you shouldn’t be taken seriously.

In addition to the ones sprinkled through the article, here is another link for your consideration: http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf

[Charlie] John,

You believe that how a person handles himself regarding alcohol is significant; so do I. Because there are consequences to our decisions, it is vital that we acquire and transmit accurate information. We need scholarship, by which I mean two things: 1) the use of reputable sources and 2) the responsible use of those sources.

I’m afraid to say that your piece, though offering a good deal of information, does not meet either of those two standards. I’ll deal with #1 first: I notice that, in your entire piece, you never once quote from a classicist or historian. The closest you come is quoting Robert Stein, whose factual statements have been criticized and contradicted by people who are classicists and historians. You are of course free to use Stein, but you do not show any awareness that his findings are disputed. That is a failure to do good scholarship. Also, key points of your argument are unsupported by your sources. The contention that wine was used to purify water does not have a source. You may quote Stein, but he does not offer a source. In fact, historical studies have shown that the ancients did not consciously purify water with alcohol; in every reference to mixing wine with water, it is for the sake of improving the taste of the wine, not the safety of the water. (Ancient wine was far stronger in flavor density than our wine; it needed to be diluted to be palatable. Some of the dilution was aesthetic preference.) Your uncritical acceptance of a thesis, despite the lack of source evidence and availability of studies to the contrary, is unscholarly. Finally, despite your assertion on this thread that you “state facts on both sides of the argument,” the truth is that you don’t have a single source written by a Christian scholar who heartily approves drinking in moderation. You can’t be taken seriously with that sort of bias.

Now, onto #2: You frequently distort your sources or employ them inappropriately in your argument. You make this historical statement: “There is plenty of evidence to prove support that the wine in bible times was very different than the wine of today.” Assuming you’re using Stein as your source, I must point out that the title of his work is “Wine Drinking in New Testament Times.” The New Testament timeline is only a small fraction of the Bible. Did you do any research on Hebrew drinking in the Old Testament? If you had, you may have found http://www.scribd.com/doc/16092246/Wine-StrengthDT] a paper by Isaiah Cox asserting that Hebrews drank their alcohol straight until Greek culture became dominant. Whether or not they did, your failure to look into the situation undermines your position and caused you to distort your sources.

Concerning your marshaling of scientific evidence, you make some questionable moves. You have only one source that addresses the long-term effects of moderate drinking, and it is overwhelmingly positive. However, you dismiss it: “There are supposedly other medical benefits to the drinking of alcoholic beverages, but the issue with these sources is that they do not seem to be entirely clear on their research, and their findings may be a bit too skeptical.” I don’t know how their finding are “skeptical.” I think you may have misused that word. It seems that you simply don’t like the article. All the other resources you quote primarily concern the effects of long-term alcohol abuse; as such, they are tangential to your discussion. In fact, the “Your Brain on Alcohol” article twice expressly states that moderate drinkers do not exhibit the brain rewiring that most of the article describes. Your inability or unwillingness to distinguish between research on alcohol and on alcoholism robs your work of credibility. Finally, your highly selective appeal to Scripture is unhelpful. By contrast, http://chetday.com/alcoholandthebible.htm this article “Alcohol and the Bible” tabulates all the references to alcoholic beverages in the Bible, drawing conclusions from that basis. (The tabulation is more useful than the following discussion.)

My point, John, is that you seem to be a good guy who wants to influence your world for Christ. I support you. However, when you write on an important topic, even if it’s not for an academic audience, you still need to be scholarly, in the sense that you consult reputable sources and use those sources responsibly. Until you do that, you shouldn’t be taken seriously.

In addition to the ones sprinkled through the article, here is another link for your consideration: http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf