Alcoholic Beverages

On some of the evangelical websites I am on have heard some very very crazy opinions. Some argue that drinking a beverage is a way to evangelize and so many on 2 other boards are calling those legalistic if they do not drink. Amazing the opinions am getting.

So what do you say? If many of you are are Fundamentalist (which I am not sure) I suppose 95% of the posters here wold agree that drinking alcohol is not wise. Not that its a sin to have a sip, is not wise. Yeah on one board I have mentioned scriptures and some posters reply back and say they do not want to get into a bible fight with me, and then quote a verse from Proverbs about reasoning with a fool implying that I am the fool, etc..

John

Discussion

We’ve had some threads in the past year or so on this issue- you might want to take a look at them and see if any of your questions are answered there.

http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-what-does-scripture-say-about-use-o…] What Does The Scripture Say About The Use of Alcohol?

http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-sword-of-lord-blasts-new-bju-press-…] Sword of the Lord blasts new BJU Press book on alcohol

http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-some-thoughts-beverage-alcohol] Some thoughts on beverage alcohol

http://sharperiron.org/article/now-about-those-differences-part-nine] Now, About Those Differences, Part Nine

http://sharperiron.org/filings/11-11-10/16966] Piper on the disconnect between the holiness and majesty of God; and movies, modesty and alcohol consumption

don’t try to win every argument on the internet. you will find an endless supply of people who are wrong. i think someone who talks about the gospel over a drink is doing more good than the other guy that was harassing people in the mall. he might also be talking with people your street preaching would never reach.

[Susan R] We’ve had some threads in the past year or so on this issue- you might want to take a look at them and see if any of your questions are answered there.

http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-what-does-scripture-say-about-use-o…] What Does The Scripture Say About The Use of Alcohol?

http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-sword-of-lord-blasts-new-bju-press-…] Sword of the Lord blasts new BJU Press book on alcohol

http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-some-thoughts-beverage-alcohol] Some thoughts on beverage alcohol

http://sharperiron.org/article/now-about-those-differences-part-nine] Now, About Those Differences, Part Nine

http://sharperiron.org/filings/11-11-10/16966] Piper on the disconnect between the holiness and majesty of God; and movies, modesty and alcohol consumption
I dont have questions. I have discussion.

[ChrisC] don’t try to win every argument on the internet. you will find an endless supply of people who are wrong. i think someone who talks about the gospel over a drink is doing more good than the other guy that was harassing people in the mall. he might also be talking with people your street preaching would never reach.
Are you trying to say that drinking is okay?

[jwolf6589] Are you trying to say that drinking is okay?
this is a loaded question and one that isn’t easily answered in this format. besides, there are many people that have answered this question far better than i could. i’d recommend gentry’s book on the subject.

[ChrisC]
[jwolf6589] Are you trying to say that drinking is okay?
this is a loaded question and one that isn’t easily answered in this format. besides, there are many people that have answered this question far better than i could. i’d recommend gentry’s book on the subject.
There has to be a simple yes or a simple no. If not I’ll take it as a yes.

I have written an article on this subject and am aware of the arguments (http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Topical/alcoholic_beverages.htm). Raead to learn my position. I state facts on both sides of the argument. Those that argue that drinking is better for their health, I have quotes from science based journals in the article.

John

John,

You believe that how a person handles himself regarding alcohol is significant; so do I. Because there are consequences to our decisions, it is vital that we acquire and transmit accurate information. We need scholarship, by which I mean two things: 1) the use of reputable sources and 2) the responsible use of those sources.

I’m afraid to say that your piece, though offering a good deal of information, does not meet either of those two standards. I’ll deal with #1 first: I notice that, in your entire piece, you never once quote from a classicist or historian. The closest you come is quoting Robert Stein, whose factual statements have been criticized and contradicted by people who are classicists and historians. You are of course free to use Stein, but you do not show any awareness that his findings are disputed. That is a failure to do good scholarship. Also, key points of your argument are unsupported by your sources. The contention that wine was used to purify water does not have a source. You may quote Stein, but he does not offer a source. In fact, historical studies have shown that the ancients did not consciously purify water with alcohol; in every reference to mixing wine with water, it is for the sake of improving the taste of the wine, not the safety of the water. (Ancient wine was far stronger in flavor density than our wine; it needed to be diluted to be palatable. Some of the dilution was aesthetic preference.) Your uncritical acceptance of a thesis, despite the lack of source evidence and availability of studies to the contrary, is unscholarly. Finally, despite your assertion on this thread that you “state facts on both sides of the argument,” the truth is that you don’t have a single source written by a Christian scholar who heartily approves drinking in moderation. You can’t be taken seriously with that sort of bias.

Now, onto #2: You frequently distort your sources or employ them inappropriately in your argument. You make this historical statement: “There is plenty of evidence to prove support that the wine in bible times was very different than the wine of today.” Assuming you’re using Stein as your source, I must point out that the title of his work is “Wine Drinking in New Testament Times.” The New Testament timeline is only a small fraction of the Bible. Did you do any research on Hebrew drinking in the Old Testament? If you had, you may have found http://www.scribd.com/doc/16092246/Wine-StrengthDT] a paper by Isaiah Cox asserting that Hebrews drank their alcohol straight until Greek culture became dominant. Whether or not they did, your failure to look into the situation undermines your position and caused you to distort your sources.

Concerning your marshaling of scientific evidence, you make some questionable moves. You have only one source that addresses the long-term effects of moderate drinking, and it is overwhelmingly positive. However, you dismiss it: “There are supposedly other medical benefits to the drinking of alcoholic beverages, but the issue with these sources is that they do not seem to be entirely clear on their research, and their findings may be a bit too skeptical.” I don’t know how their finding are “skeptical.” I think you may have misused that word. It seems that you simply don’t like the article. All the other resources you quote primarily concern the effects of long-term alcohol abuse; as such, they are tangential to your discussion. In fact, the “Your Brain on Alcohol” article twice expressly states that moderate drinkers do not exhibit the brain rewiring that most of the article describes. Your inability or unwillingness to distinguish between research on alcohol and on alcoholism robs your work of credibility. Finally, your highly selective appeal to Scripture is unhelpful. By contrast, http://chetday.com/alcoholandthebible.htm this article “Alcohol and the Bible” tabulates all the references to alcoholic beverages in the Bible, drawing conclusions from that basis. (The tabulation is more useful than the following discussion.)

My point, John, is that you seem to be a good guy who wants to influence your world for Christ. I support you. However, when you write on an important topic, even if it’s not for an academic audience, you still need to be scholarly, in the sense that you consult reputable sources and use those sources responsibly. Until you do that, you shouldn’t be taken seriously.

In addition to the ones sprinkled through the article, here is another link for your consideration: http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf

My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com

Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin

[jwolf6589] There has to be a simple yes or a simple no. If not I’ll take it as a yes.
i don’t think the bible gives a simple yes or no on this subject, so i don’t see why i should.

the american conservative church is not all christianity. the bible is for all believers through all time, and a biblical interpretation needs to reflect that. this whole question is mostly a question only for americans starting around the prohibition. in fact, some parts of europe have an alcohol limit of zero for driving that is accepted and generally followed, but believers still feel free to not apply that limit of zero to their whole life.

have you ever tried to disinfect contaminated water with alcohol? do you know what strength alcohol is required to kill common bacteria and viruses? you cannot get to that strength by diluting wine. boiling is a much simpler process (distillation is not required) than maintaining vineyards and producing wine. there is a good reason why the http://water.epa.gov/drink/emerprep/emergencydisinfection.cfm] epa still recommends boiling water instead of mixing with wine.

your look at dangers misses the fact that God knew all about these risks and potential for abuse long before he gave israel instructions for celebrating the tithe in deut 14 and long before he promised a future feast to celebrate God’s victory over death, destruction of wickedness and preservation of the righteous in isaiah 25.

i don’t know exactly what scenarios these drinking evangelizers from your first post were envisioning. i can imagine some counter-productive and sinful ones, but also some of building relationships and planting seeds.

[jwolf6589] If many of you are are Fundamentalist (which I am not sure) …
Smiling: Who are you, the FBI (Fundamentalist Bureau of Investigation)? :)
[jwolf6589] Not that its a sin to have a sip
[jwolf6589] There has to be a simple yes or a simple no
Sounds like, even for you, it is not a simple yes or no!

The Apostle Paul conceded that not all things are “a simple yes or no”:

  • “one believes he may eat all things [another] eats only vegetables” (Romans 14:2)

  • “One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike” (Romans 14:5)
My own position is clear:

  • “It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak” (Romans 14:21)

  • “Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.” (Romans 14:5)

Well CERM has a ton of different articles and I get lots of emails. That article (although) it has some flaws is not the only content on the site. I cant make everything perfect or please everyone.

I had 2 editors look over this article and both seemed to have missed these things. My current editor is not a seminary student or graduate, but she is an english grammar type. Her corrections also overlook what you mention.

I may get time to make some changes, but for the moment will change some of the grammar, spelling issues that I and the editors missed when the article was published summer 2009. I also have other writing projects I am working on. Maybe for my next one I will post it here before it goes to press. My editor will miss anything that is not related to spelling and grammar (although she does a good job catching these errors).

John
[Charlie] John,

You believe that how a person handles himself regarding alcohol is significant; so do I. Because there are consequences to our decisions, it is vital that we acquire and transmit accurate information. We need scholarship, by which I mean two things: 1) the use of reputable sources and 2) the responsible use of those sources.

I’m afraid to say that your piece, though offering a good deal of information, does not meet either of those two standards. I’ll deal with #1 first: I notice that, in your entire piece, you never once quote from a classicist or historian. The closest you come is quoting Robert Stein, whose factual statements have been criticized and contradicted by people who are classicists and historians. You are of course free to use Stein, but you do not show any awareness that his findings are disputed. That is a failure to do good scholarship. Also, key points of your argument are unsupported by your sources. The contention that wine was used to purify water does not have a source. You may quote Stein, but he does not offer a source. In fact, historical studies have shown that the ancients did not consciously purify water with alcohol; in every reference to mixing wine with water, it is for the sake of improving the taste of the wine, not the safety of the water. (Ancient wine was far stronger in flavor density than our wine; it needed to be diluted to be palatable. Some of the dilution was aesthetic preference.) Your uncritical acceptance of a thesis, despite the lack of source evidence and availability of studies to the contrary, is unscholarly. Finally, despite your assertion on this thread that you “state facts on both sides of the argument,” the truth is that you don’t have a single source written by a Christian scholar who heartily approves drinking in moderation. You can’t be taken seriously with that sort of bias.

Now, onto #2: You frequently distort your sources or employ them inappropriately in your argument. You make this historical statement: “There is plenty of evidence to prove support that the wine in bible times was very different than the wine of today.” Assuming you’re using Stein as your source, I must point out that the title of his work is “Wine Drinking in New Testament Times.” The New Testament timeline is only a small fraction of the Bible. Did you do any research on Hebrew drinking in the Old Testament? If you had, you may have found http://www.scribd.com/doc/16092246/Wine-StrengthDT] a paper by Isaiah Cox asserting that Hebrews drank their alcohol straight until Greek culture became dominant. Whether or not they did, your failure to look into the situation undermines your position and caused you to distort your sources.

Concerning your marshaling of scientific evidence, you make some questionable moves. You have only one source that addresses the long-term effects of moderate drinking, and it is overwhelmingly positive. However, you dismiss it: “There are supposedly other medical benefits to the drinking of alcoholic beverages, but the issue with these sources is that they do not seem to be entirely clear on their research, and their findings may be a bit too skeptical.” I don’t know how their finding are “skeptical.” I think you may have misused that word. It seems that you simply don’t like the article. All the other resources you quote primarily concern the effects of long-term alcohol abuse; as such, they are tangential to your discussion. In fact, the “Your Brain on Alcohol” article twice expressly states that moderate drinkers do not exhibit the brain rewiring that most of the article describes. Your inability or unwillingness to distinguish between research on alcohol and on alcoholism robs your work of credibility. Finally, your highly selective appeal to Scripture is unhelpful. By contrast, http://chetday.com/alcoholandthebible.htm this article “Alcohol and the Bible” tabulates all the references to alcoholic beverages in the Bible, drawing conclusions from that basis. (The tabulation is more useful than the following discussion.)

My point, John, is that you seem to be a good guy who wants to influence your world for Christ. I support you. However, when you write on an important topic, even if it’s not for an academic audience, you still need to be scholarly, in the sense that you consult reputable sources and use those sources responsibly. Until you do that, you shouldn’t be taken seriously.

In addition to the ones sprinkled through the article, here is another link for your consideration: http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf

However, when you write on an important topic, even if it’s not for an academic audience, you still need to be scholarly, in the sense that you consult reputable sources and use those sources responsibly. Until you do that, you shouldn’t be taken seriously.

My articles and this article are far more in depth than many of the sermons that I listened to prior to writing the article, and much of what is published by some well known Christian authors. I know of one author who has written a book yet his work is very very shallow. He writes for a uneducated laymen audience whom are not nearly as educated as you.

But thanks for the input. The next major article I need to post it here for critique.

John
[Charlie] John,

You believe that how a person handles himself regarding alcohol is significant; so do I. Because there are consequences to our decisions, it is vital that we acquire and transmit accurate information. We need scholarship, by which I mean two things: 1) the use of reputable sources and 2) the responsible use of those sources.

I’m afraid to say that your piece, though offering a good deal of information, does not meet either of those two standards. I’ll deal with #1 first: I notice that, in your entire piece, you never once quote from a classicist or historian. The closest you come is quoting Robert Stein, whose factual statements have been criticized and contradicted by people who are classicists and historians. You are of course free to use Stein, but you do not show any awareness that his findings are disputed. That is a failure to do good scholarship. Also, key points of your argument are unsupported by your sources. The contention that wine was used to purify water does not have a source. You may quote Stein, but he does not offer a source. In fact, historical studies have shown that the ancients did not consciously purify water with alcohol; in every reference to mixing wine with water, it is for the sake of improving the taste of the wine, not the safety of the water. (Ancient wine was far stronger in flavor density than our wine; it needed to be diluted to be palatable. Some of the dilution was aesthetic preference.) Your uncritical acceptance of a thesis, despite the lack of source evidence and availability of studies to the contrary, is unscholarly. Finally, despite your assertion on this thread that you “state facts on both sides of the argument,” the truth is that you don’t have a single source written by a Christian scholar who heartily approves drinking in moderation. You can’t be taken seriously with that sort of bias.

Now, onto #2: You frequently distort your sources or employ them inappropriately in your argument. You make this historical statement: “There is plenty of evidence to prove support that the wine in bible times was very different than the wine of today.” Assuming you’re using Stein as your source, I must point out that the title of his work is “Wine Drinking in New Testament Times.” The New Testament timeline is only a small fraction of the Bible. Did you do any research on Hebrew drinking in the Old Testament? If you had, you may have found http://www.scribd.com/doc/16092246/Wine-StrengthDT] a paper by Isaiah Cox asserting that Hebrews drank their alcohol straight until Greek culture became dominant. Whether or not they did, your failure to look into the situation undermines your position and caused you to distort your sources.

Concerning your marshaling of scientific evidence, you make some questionable moves. You have only one source that addresses the long-term effects of moderate drinking, and it is overwhelmingly positive. However, you dismiss it: “There are supposedly other medical benefits to the drinking of alcoholic beverages, but the issue with these sources is that they do not seem to be entirely clear on their research, and their findings may be a bit too skeptical.” I don’t know how their finding are “skeptical.” I think you may have misused that word. It seems that you simply don’t like the article. All the other resources you quote primarily concern the effects of long-term alcohol abuse; as such, they are tangential to your discussion. In fact, the “Your Brain on Alcohol” article twice expressly states that moderate drinkers do not exhibit the brain rewiring that most of the article describes. Your inability or unwillingness to distinguish between research on alcohol and on alcoholism robs your work of credibility. Finally, your highly selective appeal to Scripture is unhelpful. By contrast, http://chetday.com/alcoholandthebible.htm this article “Alcohol and the Bible” tabulates all the references to alcoholic beverages in the Bible, drawing conclusions from that basis. (The tabulation is more useful than the following discussion.)

My point, John, is that you seem to be a good guy who wants to influence your world for Christ. I support you. However, when you write on an important topic, even if it’s not for an academic audience, you still need to be scholarly, in the sense that you consult reputable sources and use those sources responsibly. Until you do that, you shouldn’t be taken seriously.

In addition to the ones sprinkled through the article, here is another link for your consideration: http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf

[Charlie] John,

You believe that how a person handles himself regarding alcohol is significant; so do I. Because there are consequences to our decisions, it is vital that we acquire and transmit accurate information. We need scholarship, by which I mean two things: 1) the use of reputable sources and 2) the responsible use of those sources…..
Do you have Scriptural authority for making this statement???

We don’t need SCHOLARSHIP, we need SCRIPTURE. If what you say is true, then the average Pastor of the average, small, Independent Baptist Church is unqualified to even preach a sermon.

Let’s get back to reality for a moment. The BIBLE is our authority - not some stuffed-shirt scholar who tries to impose his superior intellect on us who simply prefer to stick with the normal meaning of Scripture!

Personally, I have checked every single verse in the entire Bible concerning the word “wine” (KJV), and checked as many bible dictionaries that I could get my hands on. There were several dictionaries that said that they did in fact know how to preserve the fresh grape juice before it became fermented. Further, the vast majority of the references to “wine” in the Bible are NOT alcoholic, and this is easily discovered by simply reading the verses in context. Finally, the number of passages that condemn ALCOHOL are so powerful, that only an egotistical Christian bent on justifying his sin would overlook them, and continue to drink alcoholic beverages.

I know that sounds strong. However, I grow weary of the modern Christians who seek to do nothing more than justify their sin, rather than search the Scriptures from top to bottom to determine their course of action. The answers ARE in the Bible, and MOST of those are a simple “yes or no!”

In Christ,

Pastor Steve Schwenke Liberty Baptist Church Amarillo, TX

I think what Charlie is trying to say (and I don’t speak for him) is that if you are going to use informatin outside of the Bible to justify your Christian beliefs, then please, use those outside sources properly. There is a difference between expounding on the Scriptures and using secular sources to enhance your study of the Scriptures. Charlie finds fault with the OPs use of the outside sources and gives his reasons. You or I may not agree with Charlie’s conclusion, this is our right, but Charlie’s primary remarks are on the type and way in which the information is used, only secondary is did the OP come to the correct conclusion.

Thomas Chew

Lehighton, PA