Piper on the disconnect between the holiness and majesty of God; and movies, modesty and alcohol consumption

Glad to see him dealing with this…. it’s a few years old, but I’m glad to see some still giving attention to it.

“For the grace of God has appeared…instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires.” Titus 2: 11-12.

He’s beginning to sound like a fundamentalist. :)

How can there be an awakening to God’s majesty and a filling of hearts with praise to God and a zeal for truth and doctrine, but loose wires that don’t connect folks to their moral compass, and exhibit a ravenous appetite for carnality?

I think the disconnect is just a different side of the coin that folks think they’ve rejected- it’s still about packaging instead of content. The package is decorated with God’s majesty and a zeal for doctrine instead of knee-length skirts and three-piece suits, but the inside is still empty of the fruits of the Spirit.

[RPittman]

[Ron Bean] He’s beginning to sound like a fundamentalist. :)

Not really! No Fundamentalist would be so soft-sell, oblique, indirect, and beat-around-the-bush. However, I do think his message is very important. Because is Piper is the darling of the YF’s, they would do well to listen because many of them like to swill their beer, indiscriminately watch their movies, peek their porn, etc. :-o

Check out my smiley to discern my motive.

As the the YF’s, I would change your “many” to “some” or “a few”.

I’d like to take Piper on his word that these “pockets” or “groups” of tens of thousands that do not know each other but are concerned about “doctrine” and other issues, do indeed exist. But his judgment being what it is I would rather have Piper identify who these people are so that I may know, much more distinctly, about whom he is talking and so that I may know much better a reflection of what he defines as spiritually elevated groups. Unfortunately he does not, he just leaves us in the Village of the Vague.

This is not to say he may not have a minor point, and in fact the Scriptures speak clearly to the issue of being transformed by the renewing of our minds and clearly not partnering with things of the world (Ephesians 5:8-15). However I have a number of doubts regarding his claim that all these pockets are as he has defined them. Yes, I believe the pockets exist but not as he has defined them. I believe for many of these groups, if one were to introduce sound exegesis and rigorous study of God’s Word which would reign in or eliminate many of their practices and invalid concepts, you would discover God’s majesty isn’t really what they are so interested in because to reject God’s Word is to reject his majesty.

Piper bends quite demonstratively toward Puritan Pietism and so it is expected that empirical issues will dominate his concern. I do applaud the refusal to ignore the glaring contradictions existing in many groups that claim to be taken with God’s majesty and while appearing as though they cannot even get beyond elementary considerations of Christian deportment.

Of course you would but you’re not me and “many” accurately states what I intended.

So you think that “many” young fundamentalists like to swill beer, indiscriminately watch movies, peek porn, etc?

I wonder what “many” means to you, and I wonder why you think this (what is the basis of your assertion; how did you come by this information).

Of the ones that I know, I would say 30-40% exhibit at least one of the characteristics. It’s probably more like 50% but I’ll take a lesser percentage to avoid exaggeration. How many do you think means many?

Seriously? 30-40% of the young fundamentalists you know like to swill beer, indiscriminately watch movies, peek at porn, etc? Wow … That’s impressive. Tabernacle must be a real hotbed.

I don’t know of any who do.

How many do you think means many?

Well, I don’t know you but I would think it would take more than 30-40% (or even 50%) of the ones that you know. I am guessing you don’t know very many in the broad scheme of things.

I think it is easy to make these kind of charges that sound off on the “horrible state” of young fundamentalists and then when pressed we find out that you are operating off a guess based on the ones that you know. There is no way that that can be taken as anything remotely like a serious contribution. It serves no legitimate purpose other than to take a shot at a group that you don’t know much about.

Here’s my take on this issue: I doubt that many young fundamentalists drink much if at all. Their issue is that they do not think it is a sin to drink. I doubt that many watch movies indiscriminately or peek at porn. I think the people that Piper is addressing are a far cry from young fundamentalists.

Actually, depending on how one defines the terms (how much is swilling?) I think RP is on the low end of the spectrum. Really, I say that just because statistics and such show that the prevalence of porn is staggering, if http://www.safefamilies.org/sfStats.php] these statistics are anywhere near correct. I don’t think its necessarily a “YF” or “young, restless, reformed” issue. It’s pervasive. Now, it may be higher among the younger crowd, since most are introduced to it by high school.

Regarding drinking, I think among faith communities that allow it or in some way even encourage it, there is probably the highest percentage of non-drunk drinkers that you’ll find anywhere in the world. These are people who are actually drinking intending not to get drunk, which barely makes sense to the rest of the world. I’ve come across some who overdid it, but most were non-Christian friends or fairly unattached to institutional Christianity, not the YF or YRR people themselves. From my personal experience only, the heavier drinkers are more in the McLaren-type crowd.