Beale on Broader Evangelicalism

" ...let’s just zero in on the most significant problem with Dr. Beale’s taxonomy—that there are only two groups in our day, Fundamentalism and Broad Evangelicalism" - Doran

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Jeremy Horn's picture

Has anyone already verified the exact relationship between Samaritan's Purse and BGEA? So far, I can see that they share a few board members and the doctrinal statement. I couldn't see that Samaritan's Purse is a ministry of BGEA though. I did send a message asking the BGEA about this question. I will share the response that I get from them.

I ask because if they are independent from one another, then we need to remember and note that distinction in the interest of being honest. 

Craig Toliver's picture

Jeremy Horn wrote:

Has anyone already verified the exact relationship between Samaritan's Purse and BGEA? So far, I can see that they share a few board members and the doctrinal statement. I couldn't see that Samaritan's Purse is a ministry of BGEA though. I did send a message asking the BGEA about this question. I will share the response that I get from them.

I ask because if they are independent from one another, then we need to remember and note that distinction in the interest of being honest. 

The  relationship between Samaritan's Purse and BGEA? They are separate organizations. Look it up on https://www.guidestar.org/

My take on the Christmas boxes: I'm not in favor of. Our church does it, I choose to not do it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/12/20/filling-...

Although Samaritan’s Purse does many good, long-term projects through its humanitarian aid efforts, I believe this kind of giving is a bad idea, similar to the Tom’s shoe company’s “buy one, give one” model or food giveaways to deal with chronic hunger.

Except in response to emergencies, this form of charity suppresses local markets, creates feelings of dependency, and does not address systemic problems or empower local leadership.

But to participate is not fellowship with an apostate

Jeremy Horn's picture

I asked because others have conflated BGEA and Samaritan's Purse. In looking over both websites, I concluded that they were separate entities and that the accusation that BJU is partnering with BGEA is an inaccurate one.

I understand that there are those who find a partnership between BJU and Samaritan's Purse to be problematic. I can respect that as well given that there are enough similarities between both organizations

some may consider it to be splitting hairs to make a distinction between the organizations, but I believe it is an important hair because of the difference in focus of those ministries.

I think I recall reading one of the articles that Craig shared and I do think some of the concerns are worth taking into consideration on participating in Operation Christmas Child. My personal thought is that participating in OCC shouldn't be the deal-breaker that some make it out to be.

Larry's picture

Moderator

On NGU, another site listed them around 1700 or so. But I don't think NGU and BJU are rivals. Educationally perhaps, but they are two totally different places and constituencies it seems to me. There is no need for them to be the same or to compete. Like a lot of small schools, there is plenty of room for both. 

Craig Toliver's picture

Jeremy Horn wrote:
the accusation that BJU is partnering with BGEA is an inaccurate one.

It's actually a LIE!

See Phil Johnson's paper and the section on due process!

Jeremy Horn's picture

I'm attempting to be charitable towards those who have equated Samaritan's Purse and BGEA. I cannot in good conscience make the accusation that people on this board are lying(which has the concept of intentionality as part of its definition). I don't know their hearts. Have they spread misinformation? Yes, but at this point I want to be cautious about accusing them of lying because that is a serious matter.

The point about due process is well-made.

Craig Toliver's picture

Jeremy Horn wrote:

I'm attempting to be charitable towards those who have equated Samaritan's Purse and BGEA.

I'm NOT attempting to be charitable towards those who have equated Samaritan's Purse and BGEA, because I've seen this hand played before.

(See Bob Jones & MacArthur and 'the blood')

I've seen this hand played before. ... many many times before!

 

JohnS's picture

Craig Toliver wrote:

https://trainingleadersinternational.org/articles/618/why-i-wont-be-fill...

b/c WP may be behind paywall

Brother Howell misses some good points, such as SP does long-term work like "buy a goat for a family" and such.  Based on what I have seen of SP's OCC appeal, they make a strong case that the boxes are delivered by local mission or church partners and the gifts are not presented as "a rich Western benefactor sent you this" but "this gift is a demonstration of how much Jesus loves you."

To his point of inequities in the distribution, the reality is that anyone anywhere on this earth experiences inequity and can be jealous.  Any relief effort we undertake in our human frailty is going to mean saying "no" to someone in need.  We're writing on this forum, so blessed with technology and time to enable the discussion.  That's a luxury.  Please don't read what isn't said here. Contending for the truth is not a luxury.  But discussing preferences, which is largely what this thread is about, is a luxury.  

Additionally, Howell did not say this, but some folks think that the boxes are simply material goods.  In reality, each box has a local-language Gospel story book in it, often with lots of pictures since literacy is not a given.

It is inaccurate to assume that boxes are distributed without a spiritual context, such as mission partners (I personally know of a missionary that distributes OCC boxes as a means of showing the lost the love of Christ) and churches.  We sell mission and church partners short when we think they give out boxes without encouraging families and children to embrace the love Christ has demonstrated for each of them.

I agree with Howell that the biggest problem in global poverty is access and opportunity, to which I would add hope.  Child sponsorship is a great way to help, but it's not clear how that avoids the "Great Benefactor of the West" issue.  Doesn't sponsoring a child for many years and building a relationship with them carry more risk of causing resentment toward natural parents than does giving a soap, a toothbrush and toothpaste, crayons, and a Gospel storybook?

The above is not a defense per se of SP or OCC.  Just looking to bring some more facts or at least options that Howell does not seem to consider.

Jeremy Horn's picture

I can tell you're not attempting to be charitable towards them, 

Regarding the equating of BGEA and Samaritan's Purse

  • both are run by Franklin Graham 
  • They have a few board members in common 
  • Doctrinal Statement is the same for both

I can see how someone would assume that they are connected.

contrast with the MacArthur blood controversy 

  • those involved at that time (BJJr, Ian Paisley are the primary ones that I recall. I can/ could only read about this after the fact because I was young when it occurred) rejected MacArthur's clarification and follow up statement without apparently even reading it. The impression that I got was that they didn't care about it and he was still a heretic in their view(That response  grieved me very much).

I don't see that anyone here who has equated both SP and BGEA is doubling down on that position like what happened with MacArthur. We will see though.

Rob Fall's picture

Maranatha. Which has had varsity sports from the get-go. Though a soccer powerhouse in their division. They dropped gridiron football. They also dropped their historic crest and the title Crusaders, now Sabercats

Hoping to shed more light than heat..

Jay's picture

How many of your churches are doing work with local orphans as opposed to work with distant orphans via OCC?

I'm not sure that being a help to children in Africa is any better than being a help to kids in the local region and may actually be worse.  We can't outsource being salt and light.

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

Don Johnson's picture

The real Pharisees are coming out now. 

"You said BGEA, it's not BGEA. So there."

Come on, Franklin Graham is as ecumenical as his father.

The fact that Samaritan's Purse and BGEA are not identical organizations are not relevant to this discussion, really.

And using the term BGEA in this discussion may be an inaccuracy out of ignorance rather than a LIE

You are really jumping the shark now.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

pvawter's picture

Rob Fall wrote:

Maranatha. Which has had varsity sports from the get-go. Though a soccer powerhouse in their division. They dropped gridiron football. They also dropped their historic crest and the title Crusaders, now Sabercats

All clear signs of convergence in the view of this alumnus. Smile

Jeremy Horn's picture

Craig Toliver wrote:

 

Quote:

 

I can see how someone would assume that they are connected.

 

 

What happens when you "assume"

Which is why I try not to assume anything about motives without having evidence. I've done that too many times and embarrassed myself to one degree or another(and on many other topics as well).

 Franklin Graham is President and CEO of both organizations. Because of this, at first glance, both organizations would seem to be connected based on that connection . It is easy to see how someone would make that erroneous assumption.
 

My estimation is that this discussion might have been better served had Samaritan's Purse not been conflated the the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. 

Jeff Straub's picture

Brethren. There are 167 comments now. Is this going anywhere?

Both sides seem pretty convinced of their views. What more can or should be said here?

Just asking . . . 

Jeff Straub

www.jeffstraub.net

WallyMorris's picture

One: I am not interested in detailing the many problems with Redaction Criticism using this type of format. It's not conducive to the detailed analysis necessary for the topic. Plenty of resources available to do that, such as The Jesus Crisis and The Jesus Quest. Evangelicals have argued this extensively in JETS. The Point: Acceptance/Toleration of RC at BJU Seminary is an example of the theological change which several in this thread asked for, and it is a significant change. Don't minimize the significance until you have done the research first.

Two: BGEA and Samaritan's Purse both have the same President and CEO: Franklin Graham. BGEA still practices ecumenical evangelism. Franklin Graham has not ended the practice.

Three: I am disappointed that some posting here misconstrue and twist what others say, sometimes so they can write cute and somewhat humorous posts. Not Helpful. Makes me wonder if they truly understand the significance of the topics under discussion.

Four: The John MacArthur / BJU "blood of Christ" controversy has nothing to do with anything in this thread.

Five: Jeff has an excellent point. Thanks Jeff.

Wally Morris

Charity Baptist Church

Huntington, IN

amomentofcharity.blogspot.com

Bert Perry's picture

....it would make that much of a difference whether BGEA and SP are connected.  Both are broadly evangelical, both will work to a degree with those who don't hold to the five theological fundamentals.  Shouldn't the principles of separation, whatever they should be, apply equally to both?

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

Jeremy Horn's picture

Difference between Samaritan's Purse and BGEA is important because

  • truth is important and they are not the same organizations 
  • participating in Operation Christmas Child is a far cry from say sponsoring a citywide BGEA crusade alongside the local liberal church.

Regarding Operation Christmas Child being more acceptable than partnering with BGEA, ultimately a person is going to have to come to their own conclusion about that and make their own decision based on knowledge of the program and organization compared to their own understanding and convictions about what the Bible says. As I have said before, I can understand and respect that people are going to come to the conclusion that BJU participating in Operation Christmas Child is wrong. But yes, in my estimation, BJU participating in Operation Christmas Child is more acceptable than partnering with BGEA in an ecumenically sponsored evangelistic crusade.

Regarding Franklin Graham, from what I have seen, he has seemed to be less ecumenical than his father. Merely my limited observations over the years. 

 

W. T. O'Harver's picture

Rob Fall wrote:
And then there is

Maranatha.

This comment epitomizes what the few Maranatha alumni who remain in organizational Fundamentalism that I personally know say to each other. All the circles, camps, and cliques exist, "and then there is Maranatha."

Somehow that school just keeps existing apart from it all.

Jeremy Horn's picture

On the difference between SP and BGEA. A look at the websites of both organizations(particularly th about sections regarding who they are and what they do will help clarify the differences between them.

*whew* Got that off my chest. Hopefully I can let this discussion go so that we can discuss other subjects.

Ron Bean's picture

BJU also has allowed a Chick-fil-A franchise on campus. CFA's owners are in the SBC and financially support that denomination. #sarcasmintended

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

Rob Fall's picture

It goes back to the founding of the school. Dr. Cedarholm was an original. He wasn't a second-generation Fundamentalist. The isolation of the Upper Midwest from the winds of Southern Cultural Fundamentalism also helped.

W. T. O'Harver wrote:

 

Rob Fall wrote:
And then there is

 

Maranatha.

 

This comment epitomizes what the few Maranatha alumni who remain in organizational Fundamentalism that I personally know say to each other. All the circles, camps, and cliques exist, "and then there is Maranatha."

Somehow that school just keeps existing apart from it all.

Hoping to shed more light than heat..

Jay's picture

BJU also has allowed a Chick-fil-A franchise on campus.

Oh this is CLEARLY a sign of the Fundamentalist Downgrade now that BJU has compromised by allowing a multimillion dollar restaurant chain on premises.

My OutrageOMeter is beyond pegged now.  Who wants to join my protest march at the FMA?

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

Bert Perry's picture

....that we could protest at Chik-Fil-A, instead.  

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

Mark_Smith's picture

I came to this thread late. I have no dog in the hunt. I have taken 2 online classes from BJU over the years. Both were good. But I have never visited the campus. Never heard BJJr or BJIII or Stephen Jones. I have heard the current president on livestream chapel services. So I have no dog in the pro-BJU camp, no connection to yon year of fundamentalist perfection. On the other hand I listen regularly to the apparently still heretical John MacArthur (per true BJU supporters). 

Let me also say I have, and will still, given to both SP and OPP. GASP!!!!!!

In full disclosure I have never knowingly heard a BG sermon or message, even back in the day when I remember they were on TV and a child...

I read with interest the claim the OPP is somehow a bad thing. Let me ask this. If OPP teaches materialism, then I hope and pray you never buy your kid a toothbrush, or a small doll or toy truck, or candy. After all, you wouldn't want to teach your child that love is materialism... Or if you are a grandparent, heaven help you if you buy your grandchild something that undermines your child's parental authority! Or never buy you niece or nephew a similar gift that suggests does the same! Hypocrisy is such an unsightly thing...

Perhaps a small goat in the backyard would better teach your child to support themselves and cut the ties to America's materialism.

Mark_Smith's picture

You just might be a hypocrit if you don't want to send a kid in Africa a toothbrush and candy for Christmas so as to avoid the notion of teaching materialism while replying on a laptop connected to high-speed internet via 5G wifi....

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