Russell Moore: 'If I were a member of Congress, I would vote to impeach' President Trump

"'This is not about politics. This is about our country, about the rule of law and about the sanctity of human life,' Moore, president of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, wrote in a Jan. 11 op-ed posted on his website." - CPost

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Bert Perry's picture

Impeached twice, we'll see where the conviction proceedings go.  

If I were in Congress, I'd have seen if I could add a passage to the impeachment bill; add the names of Democrats who gave support to protests which soon became, or already were, riots.  If it's wrong for Trump to do it, it's wrong for Democrats.  The fun thing is that the list of Democrats to be impeached includes Kamala Harris and Nancy Pelosi, as well as Maxine Waters.  Or maybe submit a companion bill stating that because inciting riots is wrong, we need to be consistent, with a fairly long list of names of people who supported the riots associated with George Floyd's death, the appointment of Brett Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court, and numerous Occupy/Antifa actions.

Yeah, never gonna happen, but we can at least show Democrats that they're doing kabuki theater and not acting on any real principle.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

Aaron Blumer's picture

EditorAdmin

There are times when what's factually correct is just so out of place. It's like interrupting expressions of thankfulness at someone's funeral by mentioning the deceased treated you badly.

The wrongness of some Democrats' leniency toward violent race riots is so not important right now.

And also so not the same thing.

None of them were President. None of them spread a completely bogus anger-generating stolen election hoax for months and reaped a fortune from donors. None of them were chosen by The Good Guys to be the national political leader of conservatism.

Of course the left is going to act like the left. Trump made sure that the right acted like the left. It's not the same at all.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

dgszweda's picture

Again, too little too late.  Trump did what he did and got to where he got to through a whole myriad of enablers.  I still stand by the fact that the entire Republican party apparatus should be gutted.  The RNC drove this false message throughout its electorate and kept feeding Trump what he wanted to hear.  Even on his way out with his head low, the vast majority of Republican leaders are still defending him.  Trump may not have quite none what he was doing and he may have said some stupid things and he may not have said directly that they should resort to violence, but he created a whole framework over the last 6 months that only had a path of destruction.  Stupidity isn't an excuse.  I hope the Senate convicts, I hope they strip him of his ability to run again and I hope they strip him of his pension.  I hope that his business dries up for a lack of anyone willing to engage or partner with him.

And yes, the democrats have a whole slew of mess on their hands as well, but that is irrelevant for this case.  He was the president, his acts were seditious, his call to the Georgia Secretary of State could be considered impeachable, and all of it was built on a narrative of fraud so that he could drum up the base and stock his pride.

Crystal's picture

Aaron Blumer wrote:

There are times when what's factually correct is just so out of place. It's like interrupting expressions of thankfulness at someone's funeral by mentioning the deceased treated you badly.

The wrongness of some Democrats' leniency toward violent race riots is so not important right now.

And also so not the same thing.

None of them were President. None of them spread a completely bogus anger-generating stolen election hoax for months and reaped a fortune from donors. None of them were chosen by The Good Guys to be the national political leader of conservatism.

Of course the left is going to act like the left. Trump made sure that the right acted like the left. It's not the same at all.

Our government is comprised of 3 separate, co-equal branches. 
If Trump is going to be impeached for supposedly "causing insurrection" with comments that are *far* tamer than comments LOUDLY proclaimed by those in the left in Congress and fully IN context, they should absolutely face the same consequence themselves.  And lets just add that those present have stated that Trump's comments were taken out of context by the media and that there was no call to insurrection.  

Literal buildings burning.  Federal and State facilities attacked.  Property of private citizens destroyed. Violence, looting and many deaths. Many thousands arrested (but their bail fundraised for and paid by those on the Left in places of political power).  Their violence ENCOURAGED by these people in positions of power on the left. 
Further,  one of those exact same people in a position of power who called for more of the same after the burning and looting was already going on is going to be VICE PRESIDENT next week.  
You are right.  These things are not the same.  What those on the left have done is far worse, and they should face consequences for their deliberate encouragement of the riots this last year.  Trump and those on the right have done nothing but condemn violence and destruction of property since bad actors turned a rally into a riot on the 6th.  
 

JD Miller's picture

 Trump and those on the right have done nothing but condemn violence and destruction of property since bad actors turned a rally into a riot on the 6th.  

Further, Trump has been holding rallies for years.  During those years before Jan. 6th, how many windows have been broken, how many fires were started, how many business were looted, how many cops were beat up, how many people were killed- need I go on.  

As angry as I am with those who broke into the capital and stole and destroyed things- as angry as I am with those who hurt cops on Jan. 6th- the Jan. 6th behavior does not come close to rising to the level of violence that we saw from the left over the past year.  Anyone who is unable to recognize that has a clear problem with bigotry and should attempt to keep their rancor toward Trump and his supporters in check.

TylerR's picture

Editor

Good article. I agree wholeheartedly.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government. He's the author of the book What's It Mean to Be a Baptist?

Andrew K's picture

So would I. 

Not to be rude, however, but I'm not sure why Russell Moore's opinion on this matter carries more weight than any other Joe Baptist. I don't recall him studying constitutional law.

Maybe I just don't get it because I'm not SBC.

T Howard's picture

We're all about reason and logical argumentation until we enter the realm of politics. Last time I checked, tu quoque argumentation is still a logical fallacy. Further, Jesus condemns this sort of judgment in Matthew 7:1-5.

Face it, my brothers and sister, before we bemoan the fate of Donald Trump et al. at the hands of hypocritical democrats, we need to admit that we have a lot -- and, I mean a lot -- of log removing to do in our own camp. It must begin in our churches. Once we've dealt with our own "in-house sins," then we can stand against the hypocrisy of others. Until then, our faux anger and outrage is nothing more than a temper tantrum.

Grow up and do the hard work.

JD Miller's picture

We're all about reason and logical argumentation until we enter the realm of politics. Last time I checked, tu quoque argumentation is still a logical fallacy. Further, Jesus condemns this sort of judgment in Matthew 7:1-5.

Face it, my brothers and sister, before we bemoan the fate of Donald Trump et al. at the hands of hypocritical democrats, we need to admit that we have a lot -- and, I mean a lot -- of log removing to do in our own camp. It must begin in our churches. Once we've dealt with our own "in-house sins," then we can stand against the hypocrisy of others. Until then, our faux anger and outrage is nothing more than a temper tantrum.

Grow up and do the hard work.

Are you saying the church needs to take the log out of their own eye before they can call out democrats, but they do not have to take the log out of their own eye before confronting republicans?  That is what I am talking about when I use the word "bigotry."

Aaron Blumer's picture

EditorAdmin

As angry as I am with those who broke into the capital and stole and destroyed things- as angry as I am with those who hurt cops on Jan. 6th- the Jan. 6th behavior does not come close to rising to the level of violence that we saw from the left over the past year.

Nobody's even making that claim.

The inescapable truth is that Trump and his devotees created the situation on Jan 6. There would have been no protest at all without his "stolen election" propaganda campaign. And the deeper problems on the right that gave rise to Trump's election in the first place also contributed and are still there.

Also a fact: none of the summer violence attempted to prevent Congress from installing a legally elected president. Both the short and long-term scale of the capitol protest were immensely larger and more serious than all the local stuff put together.

No, we're not going to fix anything until we face the log in our own eye, as someone already noted, on the right. Talk of other group's problems (the left's problems) is changing the subject. It's transparently evasive.

 

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

WallyMorris's picture

Trump has a good case that the Senate cannot try him once he leaves office. Read Article One, Section 3, Paragraphs 6 and 7. If the Senate proceeds with trial after Trump leaves office, look for Trump's legal team to ask the Supreme Court to decide the question.

Wally Morris

Charity Baptist Church

Huntington, IN

amomentofcharity.blogspot.com

G. N. Barkman's picture

I am furious with President Trump.  I believe he deserves to be impeached.  What he did, either directly, or by shameful deceit and manipulative encouragement is despicable and needs to be punished appropriately.

But, it is not inappropriate to say that Palosi, Harris, Waters, and others in high offices have been equally guilty. SI is beginning to sound like Don Lemons shameful attempt to explain why his support of months of rioting by the Left was a good thing, but this one riot by the Right is bad, bad, bad.  Let' s be willing to say they are BOTH equally reprehensible and both ought to be denounced and all who encouraged either need to be held accountable.

G. N. Barkman

WallyMorris's picture

Moore states that he favors using the 25th Amendment to remove Trump. This situation is not what the 25th Amendment is designed for. Perhaps people should actually read the Constitution before waxing philosophical about the Constitution. The appropriate mechanism in this situation, if you choose to attempt to remove the President, is impeachment. Pence's letter to Pelosi answers why using that Amendment is not the correct process. Additionally, using the 25th Amendment would take awhile since the Amendment gives the President the right to answer charges.

Wally Morris

Charity Baptist Church

Huntington, IN

amomentofcharity.blogspot.com

JD Miller's picture

 Both the short and long-term scale of the capitol protest were immensely larger and more serious than all the local stuff put together.

That is simply an opinion, just like your opinion that there was no substantial election fraud.  The fraud issue is still not settled one way or another.  In fact, a woman in Texas was just arrested for fraud that was exposed before the election.  These things take time and the issue has not yet been settled.   

I am extremely concerned about how the logic of the beam is being abused.  Imagine in the church if we said that we could not ever confront sin in women because men still had sin problems.  If only women's sins were being addressed and men's sins were being ignored then we would have an issue.  Essentially that is what is being endorsed- only confront one political party's sins and ignore the others.  That is not even close to righteousness.

Futher the beam is for SELF reflection, not for corporate.

dgszweda's picture

G. N. Barkman wrote:

Let' s be willing to say they are BOTH equally reprehensible and both ought to be denounced and all who encouraged either need to be held accountable.

No one is saying that they are not both bad.  This thread is about trump though, not every government official in the country.  I kind of feel that many of us are acting like 1st graders.  We say, "We took Johnny's toy because Johnny took my toy".  Just because the democrats do something doesn't lessen our need to call out Trump.  The overt concern with Trump is because his behaviors have been excused for 4 years by the religious right, always pointing to the other side being worse. 

JD Miller's picture

I am furious with President Trump.  I believe he deserves to be impeached.  What he did, either directly, or by shameful deceit and manipulative encouragement is despicable and needs to be punished appropriately.

But, it is not inappropriate to say that Palosi, Harris, Waters, and others in high offices have been equally guilty. SI is beginning to sound like Don Lemons shameful attempt to explain why his support of months of rioting by the Left was a good thing, but this one riot by the Right is bad, bad, bad.  Let' s be willing to say they are BOTH equally reprehensible and both ought to be denounced and all who encouraged either need to be held accountable.

Greg, I may disagree with you about impeachment, BUT I very much respect your position.  You are consistent and honest.  For me, it is not really a big deal that we disagree about impeachment as long as it is applied equally to all involved.  If the idea of treating people differently were applied in the church the way it is being applied in politics that would be an extreme injustice.  

Republicans and Christians have been calling out Trump and at times they should have.  It is not wrong to suggest the the same should be done for democrat leaders who have done the same as Trump and have been getting away with it for longer than he has even been in office.

Crystal's picture

dgszweda wrote:

 

G. N. Barkman wrote:

 

Let' s be willing to say they are BOTH equally reprehensible and both ought to be denounced and all who encouraged either need to be held accountable.

 

 

No one is saying that they are not both bad.  This thread is about trump though, not every government official in the country.  I kind of feel that many of us are acting like 1st graders.  We say, "We took Johnny's toy because Johnny took my toy".  Just because the democrats do something doesn't lessen our need to call out Trump.  The overt concern with Trump is because his behaviors have been excused for 4 years by the religious right, always pointing to the other side being worse. 

I don't recall ever hearing anyone say "They had riots, so now I we have to riot."  Or "They lied, so now we have to lie."  In fact, quite the opposite. 

 You and I must run in totally different circles.  I've sure heard a LOT of believers stating that they took issue with Trump's behaviors.  Christians HAVE been critical-as have his fellow Republicans.    
Every Republican in office has been criticized in my entire memory by those on the right.  "Here is the good, here is the bad." Even conservative talk radio holds republican's feet to the fire. 
Funny how that doesn't seem to be happening the other direction.    

T Howard's picture

JDMiller wrote:
Are you saying the church needs to take the log out of their own eye before they can call out democrats, but they do not have to take the log out of their own eye before confronting republicans?  That is what I am talking about when I use the word "bigotry."

The church (i.e. individual believers) needs to rid itself of political pragmatism. Period. Then, Christians who identify as republicans need to do their best to rid the party of morally bankrupt politicians like Trump. Only then can we muster up any righteous indignation and squawk about the democrats.

JDMiller wrote:
If the idea of treating people differently were applied in the church the way it is being applied in politics that would be an extreme injustice.

Not at all. What does Peter say? (1 Peter 4:17) Christians need to take care of our own business before seeking to point out the hypocrisy in others.

JDMiller wrote:
Republicans and Christians have been calling out Trump and at times they should have.

Very few have. That is the problem. Most have rationalized and justified his behavior because of political pragmatism. Even some here still rationalize Trump's moral bankruptcy as "sure, so he has a few issues...",and then immediately follow it up with, "...but what about those democrats." This rationalization and tu quoque argumentation has to stop.

WallyMorris's picture

Seems THoward is calling for a political and moral purge of the Republican Party based on . . what . . his own understanding of what is correct? And even if that standard is correct, how would he "rid the party" of those he considers unacceptable? A little scary.

Once again, political pragmatism is always a part of almost every political decision, including, to some extent, many decisions in churches. Politics is present in churches too, simply a mechanism to accomplish goals. Doesn't have to be bad or immoral.

Wally Morris

Charity Baptist Church

Huntington, IN

amomentofcharity.blogspot.com

JD Miller's picture

I asked Tom"

If the idea of treating people differently were applied in the church the way it is being applied in politics that would be an extreme injustice.

His reply:

Not at all. What does Peter say? (1 Peter 4:17) Christians need to take care of our own business before seeking to point out the hypocrisy in others.

Just to clarify, are you suggesting the I Peter 4 is saying that if you have a Republican and a Democrat in your church you are supposed to overlook their sin until the church votes to condemn Trump?  Or are you suggesting that it is okay to condemn the Republican, but not the Democrat because of Trump?  I am honesty not sure what you are suggesting.

If you are suggesting that it would be wrong to confront a sin in person B's life when you had been overlooking it in person A's life for years and continuing to allow  person A to continue in church leadership, then I can see where you are coming from.  That is what we are talking about when we point out that people in leadership on the national level have been allowed for years to get by with the same thing that Trump was just impeached for.

Bert Perry's picture

The hypothesis the Democrats are working on, more or less, is that if a prominent politician says things which rouse a protest into a riot, then that poses such a danger to the Republic that that politician must be removed.

If they apply that "principle", however, to only one side of the aisle, then they've merely engaged in political gamesmanship, intended to promote their brand and degrade the other.  And since the names of Democrats who encouraged the earlier riots are not on the bill, nor seriously in consideration, that's the case here.  Republicans are thus free to make the decision on whether to impeach on pragmatic grounds, and they are free to point out the blatant hypocrisy of the Democrats. 

You can't have a republic if the rules only apply to one side of the argument, and that's a big reason Trump got elected in the first place.  You had a four year pursuit of Scooter Libby for allegedly lying to investigators--same with Michael Flynn--but when it came to an open and shut case against Hilliary Clinton for mishandling classified data, Jim Comey wouldn't even convene a grand jury and issue a single subpoena.    Same basic thing with Joe Biden's selling of favors to benefit himself and his son, the investigation of Fast & Furious, the IRS scandal....the pattern is pretty clear here.  If it would punish Democrats or bureaucrats, the investigation gets slow walked into oblivion.

One final note is that with regards to the 25th Amendment, there is no clear evidence that Trump is incapacitated.  Let's not succumb to the common disease of politicians, grabbing for any remedy whether or not it fits.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

T Howard's picture

WallyMorris wrote:

Seems THoward is calling for a political and moral purge of the Republican Party based on . . what . . his own understanding of what is correct? And even if that standard is correct, how would he "rid the party" of those he considers unacceptable? A little scary.

Yes, I'm calling for a purge of the Republican party ... a purge of morally bankrupt politicians like Trump. We "rid the party" of these people by refusing to support / vote for them -- instead of rationalizing and justifying their behavior based on political pragmatism and tu quoque argumentation. If conservative Christians didn't support / vote for Trump, he would never have been the Republican nominee for president.

Quote:
Once again, political pragmatism is always a part of almost every political decision, including, to some extent, many decisions in churches. Politics is present in churches too, simply a mechanism to accomplish goals. Doesn't have to be bad or immoral.

Without safeguards, political pragmatism leads to politicians like Trump, Lenin, Hitler, et al. (No, I'm not saying Trump = Hitler). If the end justifies the means, then any means is acceptable as long as the end is realized.

How can Christians advocate this worldview?

T Howard's picture

JD Miller wrote:
Just to clarify, are you suggesting the I Peter 4 is saying that if you have a Republican and a Democrat in your church you are supposed to overlook their sin until the church votes to condemn Trump?  Or are you suggesting that it is okay to condemn the Republican, but not the Democrat because of Trump?  I am honesty not sure what you are suggesting.

If you are suggesting that it would be wrong to confront a sin in person B's life when you had been overlooking it in person A's life for years and continuing to allow  person A to continue in church leadership, then I can see where you are coming from.  That is what we are talking about when we point out that people in leadership on the national level have been allowed for years to get by with the same thing that Trump was just impeached for.

Let me be clear:

Step 1: Christians need to reject political pragmatism as an acceptable worldview.

Step 2: Christians need to do their part to "purge out" the morally corrupt, inept, and otherwise unqualified political candidates from the Republican party. This is done by refusing to vote for these people, even in the general election. Yes, that means democrats may win the election.

Step 3: Christians then have a platform on which they can call out the Democrats.

Is this not what Jesus taught us in Matthew 7? You can't remove the speck in your neighbor's eye (ie. democrats) when you have a log in your own (ie. republicans). First, remove the log out of your own eye, then you can help your neighbor to remove the speck in his eye.

Instead of removing the log in our eye, we Christians refuse to remove the log. In fact, we like the log in our eye because it allows us to get what we want. When someone says, "hey, you have a huge log in your eye," we immediately get defensive and respond, "yeah, but what about that guy over there. Look at his log."  And, we refuse to remove our log.  We're always deflecting. Always excusing. Always justifying the log in our eye.

Brothers, it starts with us. Stop the madness.

Don Johnson's picture

T Howard wrote:

Is this not what Jesus taught us in Matthew 7? You can't remove the speck in your neighbor's eye (ie. democrats) when you have a log in your own (ie. republicans). First, remove the log out of your own eye, then you can help your neighbor to remove the speck in his eye.

You're saying that Mt 7 is instruction on politics? On group activity?

I think you are out to lunch. 

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

T Howard's picture

Don Johnson wrote:
You're saying that Mt 7 is instruction on politics? On group activity?

That wasn't the original context of Jesus' instruction, Don, but, yes, we can certainly apply it to our involvement in politics. We can also apply Matt 5:13-16 to our involvement in politics. (and, we're failing to obey this passage too.)

Mark_Smith's picture

morally corrupt, inept, and otherwise unqualified members from my Sunday School class, let alone a political organization!

Don Johnson's picture

T Howard wrote:

 

Don Johnson wrote:
You're saying that Mt 7 is instruction on politics? On group activity?

 

That wasn't the original context of Jesus' instruction, Don, but, yes, we can certainly apply it to our involvement in politics. We can also apply Matt 5:13-16 to our involvement in politics. (and, we're failing to obey this passage too.)

the trouble is, your "application" is just your opinion. I think it's delusional at best.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

JD Miller's picture

Let me be clear:

Step 1: Christians need to reject political pragmatism as an acceptable worldview.

Step 2: Christians need to do their part to "purge out" the morally corrupt, inept, and otherwise unqualified political candidates from the Republican party. This is done by refusing to vote for these people, even in the general election. Yes, that means democrats may win the election.

Step 3: Christians then have a platform on which they can call out the Democrats.

That sounds like a position of someone who is equating the Republican party with Christianity.  The Republican party is not part of the church.  It is made up of believers and unbelievers.  My faith is in Christ, not the Republican party.  That does not mean that God cannot use our elected leaders and even a party, but I do not expect to ever be able to "clean up" a secular institution in a manner that reaches God's standards.  That does not mean that we ignore problems.  Republicans have not ignored every problem within their party.  To suggest otherwise is slander.  Still I am not involved in the Republican Party other than when I go vote.  I was involved at the state and local level about 20 years ago, but I decided my attention was better spent elsewhere.  At the same time I respect those Christians who do get involved and who try to direct the party towards more godly principles.  

T Howard's picture

JD Miller wrote:
That sounds like a position of someone who is equating the Republican party with Christianity.  The Republican party is not part of the church.  It is made up of believers and unbelievers.  My faith is in Christ, not the Republican party.

I agree. So, then, let's start acting like Christians instead of political pragmatists! Let's be delusional (according to Don) and start acting like salt and light. If the Republican party puts up a terrible candidate, let's choose not to support or vote for him/her ... regardless of who the democratic candidate is. Let's stop making excuses for terrible behavior by our candidates while engaging in tu quoque argumentation about the democrats.

That's all I'm saying, brothers.

WallyMorris's picture

THoward: One difficulty is who decides what is a "terrible candidate" and by what standard? If you aren't careful, you will eliminate every candidate from each political party and end up not voting for anyone ever. I can find major problems with each candidate from each political party since George Washington. Even Washington was strongly disliked at certain points in his two administrations.

I suspect that these decisions will only get more difficult every election cycle as the general population and specifically those running for elected office are less influenced by Biblical ethics. But each Christian has to make voting decisions for himself and live with his conscience before God. Representative Democracy in our republic is messy. But, as the political philosophers say, better than the alternatives.

Wally Morris

Charity Baptist Church

Huntington, IN

amomentofcharity.blogspot.com

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