Trump Evangelical Advisers Back Voting Challenges But Stop Short of Alleging Fraud

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JohnS's picture

Pretty stout words to say that I'm being conned.  Asserting negative things about people you don't actually know and whose points are not actually refuted strikes me as not all that Christian. 

Rather than being conned, I am 100% supportive of seeing where the evidence leads.  Hard to believe that any of us posting here have comprehensive access to facts such that we could claim with certainty that there is NO EVIDENCE.  There may be evidence.  It may not change the outcome of the election. 

Fraud is fraud and should be found out and dealt with under the law.  I don't recall saying anywhere in my posts that any of this would overturn the result or that my motivation was to see the result overturned.  I do want just laws to be enforced, as they are the basis of civil life.  That is something that all Christians should be able to endorse.  Much more productive than claiming people we don't know are somehow conned because they disagree with our position and the evidence that we claim to have comprehensively surveyed.

RajeshG's picture

G. N. Barkman's picture

Is Trump acting like a brat?  Yes, in my opinion.  Does that prove that all claims of fraud are wrong?  Not in my opinion.  Has proof yet been offered of significant fraud?  Not yet.  Is any forthcoming?  We won't know until this runs its course, but the longer it goes on without tangible proof, the more it looks like there is no evidence of fraud.  If Trump is making baseless charges for political reasons, that will become clearer as this runs its course, and Trump's support will seriously erode.  If, however, some genuine examples of fraud are revealed, even if they are not sufficient to change the results, their exposure will make it less likely they will happen in the future.

Conclusion:  let this run its course.  No matter the outcome, the nation will be better served by bringing this to a final conclusion than by rushing to a premature verdict.  Patience is both a great virtue and a helpful posture to encourage the elevation of truth.

G. N. Barkman

dgszweda's picture

G. N. Barkman wrote:

Conclusion:  let this run its course.  No matter the outcome, the nation will be better served by bringing this to a final conclusion than by rushing to a premature verdict.  Patience is both a great virtue and a helpful posture to encourage the elevation of truth.

I think you miss the point here.  No minds the lawsuits.  I am fine with those.  I believe there are only 2-3 more that still have some hearings, all 35 of the other ones have lost.  I also don't believe any new ones have been filed in the last few days.  Regardless, if there are signs of fraud and irregularity they should be examined.  The beef that all of us have are:

  • Frivolous lawsuit filing - which many of these are
  • Using the office of the president to peddle outlandish claims, that you are not even making in court and legal proceedings, so that you can sow doubt as to the integrity of the election
  • Your own election experts saying that they find now signs of fraud and that the election appears to be secure, and then firing them for lying
  • Subverting the legal process by calling local election officials to change their vote, inviting lawmakers to the White House to get them to change the electorate process
  • Not being a leader and continuing to lead the nation, despite this challenge
  • Not working, with the incoming administration on a transition

While I find the legal challenges acceptable, I find the other elements dangerous.  Many evangelicals want to claim that Trump is a Christian, well this is not Godly behavior.  It is also not behavior that the most senior elected official should exhibit, and this borders on fradulent/illegal behavior.  We should hold our leaders accountable to their actions.  We did when Clinton complained about the election in 2016.  Instead it is crickets, and back to the initial part of this post, crickets from the evangelical community.  Trump has a long play here and it is not about the integrity of the election, that he has fooled many people into believing, but to create doubt in the legitimacy of the election process and in Biden.  That is the ultimate problem.  So let the legal filings go forward, let the audits and recounts continue as long as they are legal.  They are a hail mary, but let them continue.  Lets stop all of the democratically damaging behaviors from the President.

G. N. Barkman's picture

I don't think I missed the point.  What was my very first statement?  That Trump is acting like a brat.  Isn't that basically what you are saying as well?  I agree that Trump's behavior is deplorable.  I agree that he is, in no way, acting like a Christian.  (I never considered him a Christian, and have said so on SI in the past.)  I agree that those who think Trump is a Christian are displaying ignorance.  This reveals a serious problem among Evangelicals, namely that many have little understanding of the New Birth.  What I am saying is by patiently letting this run its course, the truth about Trump's character will become more obvious, which will cause many of his supporters to abandon him.  Don't forget, many who voted for Trump were voting for his positions, policies, and accomplishments, not his disappointing behavior.  They were also voting against Democrats being able to advance their policies. 

If the legal appeals are allowed to run their full course without success, no thinking person can believe that the election was stolen.  If there is some actual fraud, it will be exposed, making it less likely to happen in the future.

What's the downside with that?  For those who despise Trump, this would seem to be the best way to weaken his hold on his followers.  For those who have been blindly loyal to Trump, let them see for themselves that the Emperor has no clothes.  For those who worry that he is doing damage to the country, this would seem to be the best way to bring that to an end.  Anything less than a full airing of appeals and clear finality will only fan suspicion of fraud.  Be patient as this runs its course.  That's the best procedure for everyone and for our nation.  Some seem to be in a panic about the damage they imagine this is doing.  I see it instead as a comforting reminder that the mechanics of American government are still working.

G. N. Barkman

G. N. Barkman's picture

Several days ago I asked, if the numerous mistakes in several states are all attributable to unavoidable human error, why do they all seem to be made in the interests of Democrats?  Both common sense and the law of averages tell us that if they are innocent mistakes, half should favor Republicans, but that does not seem to be the case.  So far, nobody has refuted that statement, nor offered evidence to demonstrate that half of the errors have favored Republicans.  If my premise is not wrong, shouldn't that in itself cause us to dig a little deeper?  Pointing out the obvious is not proof of fraud, but exercising common sense seems to point to deliberate attempts to cheat, and would raise legitimate suspicions that there is a lot more cheating that nobody caught.   Its observations like this that cause millions of people to suspect fraud.  This is also the reason why we need to let the process play itself out, rather than rush to a verdict.  If nothing is amiss, we will all sigh with relief, and accept the results without rancor.  If anti-Trumpers won't allow investigations to proceed, millions will have just cause to believe they have been cheated.

G. N. Barkman

RajeshG's picture

Nevada: Total Ballots Cast: 1,327,394, Total Presidential Election Votes: 1,405,376

If this information is valid, plainly there is a massive problem with the election in Nevada!

Update: This information is not valid. Doing some searching based on a comment that I read in the original article, I found that the ultimate number of voters in Nevada was 1,407,754, not 1,327,394. The information in the original article shows the total ballots cast by November 10; apparently, there were many more ballots processed after that date.

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