Trump Evangelical Advisers Back Voting Challenges But Stop Short of Alleging Fraud
[dgszweda]No, I am not being conned. Officials in states do not have the authority to set aside state and federal laws at their pleasure. If SCOTUS and other courts do their jobs, the results of this election are going to change. That may not happen, but it should.No, you are being conned. All of the recounts have shown 100% that the machines were accurate, including the full statewide recount in Georgia. Not a single lawsuit has shown any fraud. No lawsuits left in Georgia. No lawsuits left in Michigan. What you are seeing is that any old fool can stand up and say whatever they want in front of a podium with cameras and microphones. But because we are a country that is about rule of law, there isn’t much you can do legally when there is no evidence. The reason why they are not saying the same thing in front of the judges is because there are serious consequences when you stand in court and lie. This is classic Qannon, and conspiracy language. And it is right out of their playbook. All they have to do is sow doubt. It is a grave sin what they are doing and evangelicals are scooping it up by the shovel fulls and taking it in.
You wrote:
Those who care about the rule of law must continue to pray that God will have mercy that those who have acted contrary to local, state, and federal laws will not succeed.
No one is saying that we hope those who violate the rule of law will succeed. The point is that there is no evidence of wide spread voter fraud to justify this intentional undermining of the system, sowing seeds of doubt and discontentment in voters, creating wider divisions, and setting the stage for violence. Zero evidence. Trump is the one who is evidencing a lack of concern for the rule of law. He’s undermining the Constitution, the courts, and this country his supporters claim to love by this unhinged political absurdist theatre being played out in front of TV cameras. Again, and I don’t understand why this is seemingly dismissed, what’s being played out in the courts is entirely different. It’s different from what Trump’s team is angrily and confidently declaring on TV. It’s different from the conspiracy theories being spread on social media. And it’s different from what many here on SI continue to claim. The courts continue throwing suit after suit out because there is no evidence, a lack of understanding of voting laws, and, absurdly, because Trump’s lawyers confess in court that there has been no widespread voter fraud.
Question: Yesterday, a federal court ruled that a statewide audit confirmed that Biden won the State of Georgia and that there was zero evidence of widespread voter fraud. They ruled that the election was conducted fairly and securely. Since you (and others) have professed fealty to the rule of law, do you accept the court’s decision? Or, are you going to continue to push the narrative provided by Rudy G., Sidney Powell, and Trump’s campaign during their emotionally charged press conferences? A narrative that contradicts what Trump’s legal team is saying in court and contradicts their court filings and lawsuits. And here’s the thing, even if you answer “yes”, there are scores of Trump supporters who are going to angrily dismiss the court’s decision because of Trump’s actions and words. There was zero evidence from the beginning, and any support for this political absurdist theatre (with an endgame no one but Trump knows yet) aids in the chaos, division, undermining of this country’s institutions, and potential violence that will be part and parcel of the result of all this.
[dgszweda]In the recount, the machines were not the only issue at stake. As I understand it, the Secretary of State in GA entered into an agreement with Democrats that prevented the checking of signatures in the recount. Only the legislature has that authority—not the SOS.No, you are being conned. All of the recounts have shown 100% that the machines were accurate, including the full statewide recount in Georgia. Not a single lawsuit has shown any fraud. No lawsuits left in Georgia.
Had that agreement not been made and followed, the results of the recount would very likely have been different. SCOTUS or some lesser court must intervene and force a full recount with full signature verification checks. If they do not do that, the results of GA will be suspect.
[John E.]You seem to be missing the point of what I am saying. There are election laws that were changed by people who should not have been able to change them. Only the legislatures of the states had that authority. SCOTUS must intervene to overrule all such actions. If they do not do so, then we will no longer be a country where the rule of law is followed.You wrote:
Those who care about the rule of law must continue to pray that God will have mercy that those who have acted contrary to local, state, and federal laws will not succeed.
No one is saying that we hope those who violate the rule of law will succeed. The point is that there is no evidence of wide spread voter fraud to justify this intentional undermining of the system, sowing seeds of doubt and discontentment in voters, creating wider divisions, and setting the stage for violence. Zero evidence. Trump is the one who is evidencing a lack of concern for the rule of law. He’s undermining the Constitution, the courts, and this country his supporters claim to love by this unhinged political absurdist theatre being played out in front of TV cameras. Again, and I don’t understand why this is seemingly dismissed, what’s being played out in the courts is entirely different. It’s different from what Trump’s team is angrily and confidently declaring on TV. It’s different from the conspiracy theories being spread on social media. And it’s different from what many here on SI continue to claim. The courts continue throwing suit after suit out because there is no evidence, a lack of understanding of voting laws, and, absurdly, because Trump’s lawyers confess in court that there has been no widespread voter fraud.
Question: Yesterday, a federal court ruled that a statewide audit confirmed that Biden won the State of Georgia and that there was zero evidence of widespread voter fraud. They ruled that the election was conducted fairly and securely. Since you (and others) have professed fealty to the rule of law, do you accept the court’s decision? Or, are you going to continue to push the narrative provided by Rudy G., Sidney Powell, and Trump’s campaign during their emotionally charged press conferences? A narrative that contradicts what Trump’s legal team is saying in court and contradicts their court filings and lawsuits. And here’s the thing, even if you answer “yes”, there are scores of Trump supporters who are going to angrily dismiss the court’s decision because of Trump’s actions and words. There was zero evidence from the beginning, and any support for this political absurdist theatre (with an endgame no one but Trump knows yet) aids in the chaos, division, undermining of this country’s institutions, and potential violence that will be part and parcel of the result of all this.
Yes, this judge rejected the lawsuit, but that does not mean that there is not a valid dispute about the matter. I hope that Wood will keep fighting this battle.
I think Trump would be well served to concede the election as gracefully as he can, and then work on promoting some sort of election reform for mail-in ballots. I think going through the process of verifying close election results is fine, but throwing around serious allegations without any real proof is not helping his credibility. Nor was firing Christopher Krebs, the Homeland Security Cybersecurity Czar, who by all accounts within the industry (an industry in which I work) has really done a very good job, especially in the area of election security. It’s too bad Trump went down this path, because, his term could have ended on a very high note with an imminent nation-wide vaccine distribution. If he has any thoughts of running again in 4 years, he should do everything he can to make the country regret its decision, but this vaccine success is getting overshadowed by some very bad looks right now.
I do think we need better controls on mail-in ballots. I’m not a fan of just mailing them out to everyone. I think that is ripe for abuse. I also think there needs to be a bipartisan process that verifies signatures, addresses, eligibility (not dead, resident, turned in on time, etc), and a counting process that doesn’t go on-and-on. To me, the two most suspicious things about this election are (1) the alleged low reject rate for mail-in ballots and (2) the surprising enthusiasm for Biden that produced such a large vote count for him.
No, in fact, Georgia did not change election laws illegally. That’s another of the Trump campaign’s conspiracy theories/lies. A legal settlement was signed on March 6.
Andy E, your dislike of Biden seems like an odd foundation upon which to build a claim that something fishy must be going on because of the high voter turnout for Biden. Especially in the fact of the fact that Trump’s lawyers have yet to provide any actual evidence of widespread voter fraud (did you see Tucker’s rant last night? I’m assuming Trump is going to turn on him now). Have you considered that while Trump and the RNC were busy sowing the seeds for mistrusting this election, the DNC was busy doing the hard work of getting voters out (see Stacy Abrams in GA)? Or, and in combination, that Trump is so divisive and polarizing that many people didn’t vote for Biden as much as vote against Trump? There are other simpler explanations than a conspiracy. Think Ockham’s Razor. Also, the low reject rate? My word, I was a mail in voter and I was inundated for months with instructions on how to do it correctly. I would have to willfully done it incorrectly. Whether anyone likes it or not, the DNC did a masterful job of getting the word out and aiding people. And, regardless of what the conspiracy theories say, vote curing is not illegal.
Among other conspiracy theories/lies, over the last couple of days, Trump has tweeted out:
1. The conspiracy theory/lie that more votes were cast than there are voters in certain MI counties. That’s a demonstrable lie.
2. The conspiracy theory/lie about the U.S. Army ceasing voting machine servers in Germany. Again, a flat out lie (and considering that he’s the Commander in Chief, it’s hard to say, “well, he just made a mistake”).
Trump is a known liar, a conman, and people who in 2016 stated that are now swallowing his conspiracy theories and lies.
[John E.] Andy E, your dislike of Biden seems like an odd foundation upon which to build a claim that something fishy must be going on because of the high voter turnout for Biden. Especially in the fact of the fact that Trump’s lawyers have yet to provide any actual evidence of widespread voter fraud (did you see Tucker’s rant last night? I’m assuming Trump is going to turn on him now). Have you considered that while Trump and the RNC were busy sowing the seeds for mistrusting this election, the DNC was busy doing the hard work of getting voters out (see Stacy Abrams in GA)? Or, and in combination, that Trump is so divisive and polarizing that many people didn’t vote for Biden as much as vote against Trump? There are other simpler explanations than a conspiracy. Think Ockham’s Razor. Also, the low reject rate? My word, I was a mail in voter and I was inundated for months with instructions on how to do it correctly. I would have to willfully done it incorrectly. Whether anyone likes it or not, the DNC did a masterful job of getting the word out and aiding people. And, regardless of what the conspiracy theories say, vote curing is not illegal.Why do you think my suspicions are built upon my dislike of Biden? What conspiracy theories did I promote? All I said was that I was suspicious of a couple things, meaning I don’t understand how they happened. I’m not saying they didn’t happen, or that it’s not true, but that it seems odd to me. I get the fact that people hate Trump and voted against him, but what I saw was the huge rallies all over the country for Trump and the relative low turnout for the Biden rallies. That’s what I’m basing my surprise on, nothing else. It just seemed to me that Trump had way more voter enthusiasm behind him. So, how Biden was able to pull off this victory, with such a high vote count, is a mystery to me. Your answer is getting out the vote efforts by democrats. Maybe you are right. What I think happened is that the wide-spread mail in vote enabled millions of people to vote, who normally would not make the effort to vote. Democrats were able to get ballots in the hands of their constituency, and get them turned in, in huge numbers. Republicans basically voted the old fashioned by, by going to their polling place. It is possible that all this was on the up-and-up, but this is also new, and so taking a look at the process to make sure we do it right in the future seems like a valid effort.
[RajeshG]Some of us are not being conned. We understand that vital issues are at stake in what is taking place that are much bigger than which candidate becomes President.
What’s yet at stake in key controversies over this presidential election is what kind of country we will be. Either we are going to be a country where laws are followed or we are going to be a country where laws can be set aside by people whom the laws do not authorize to do so.
Those who care about the rule of law must continue to pray that God will have mercy that those who have acted contrary to local, state, and federal laws will not succeed.
This is precisely true, and precisely why the “stolen election” narrative is anti-American and anti-rule-of-law. It’s a question of “stories we want to believe” vs. evidence and law.
In a year with a whole lot of bad news, it’s encouraging to me that facts and law are winning this one. Those who prefer their story over evidence and law are, no doubt, going to persist in some form or another. And Trump is probably going to keep encouraging them. Hopefully, as the futility (and probably sheer vindictiveness—what else could motivate such an obviously unwinnable series of battles?) of these legal battles becomes increasingly undeniable, Trump is increasingly marginalized.
The sooner conservatism and the GOP begin to recover and regain their senses, the better.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I feel it my duty to pop back in here to remind everyone President Trump lost the election, that Joe Biden won, and nothing you write here or wish upon a star will ever change that …
Carry on!
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
I am extremely skeptical of the posted election results, not because of Fox News (which I don’t watch) or Rudy Guliani (who I don’t trust) but because I understand history and statistics. To believe that Biden won by the posted margins, you have to believe several unusual, unprecedented or inexplicable things all happened at the same time.
Historical
Depending on which report you read, there were either 26 or 27 true toss up races in the House of Representatives. The Republican candidate won them all. There were another 20 or so that leaned Republican (again the counts vary a little, but the point remains) and the Republicans won all of those as well. There were about 25 that leaned Democrat. The Republicans won 7 or 8 of those, and may well pick up 2 or 3 more when the dust has all settled. In addition, the Republicans won all five of the toss up Senate races that have been decided—with two more pending the runoffs in Georgia. NEVER before in US history has the losing presidential candidate had his party win all the contested seats in the House and Senate. It could happen, and maybe this is the election where it did, but that’s unprecedented.
Statistical
In past elections the number of mail in ballots disqualified for various reasons has run 3-6% depending on the state. In this election, with millions more mail in ballots than ever before, that number has dropped more than 1000%, and I’m not exaggerating. The checks and balances on mail in votes that prevent fraud were basically disabled, and nearly all of them were accepted as valid. Beyond that, the practice of mailing unsolicited ballots is such an open invitation to fraud that it calls everything into question.
Supposedly tons more Democrats voted by mail, giving Biden a huge edge there that overcame Trump’s advantage on election day. Yet in the states which register by party, the gap between ballot requests from the elephants and the donkeys was much closer than in past elections, with the Democrats not nearly as far ahead as normal. Again maybe all those GOP mail in voters were Republicans who hated Trump and voted for Biden, but given the exit polling numbers on party support, that seems highly unlikely. And statistical analysis of vote totals by precinct in the key states shows some very odd patterns. Not absolute proof of cheating, but something that is very rare to find in numbers which have not been artificially adjusted, and as the French saying goes, it gives one furiously to think.
State Department
The US State Department lists stopping the counting of ballots as one of the major indicators of election fraud. It may be a complete coincidence that the four states which basically are deciding this election all stopped counting ballots on election night with Trump in the lead, and resumed counting with huge spikes in Biden votes that put him ahead. But it’s something that, if it happened in another country, our government would view with extreme suspicion as an indication of likely cheating.
You can discount all of this as conspiracy theories or wild speculation, but these are facts. Maybe there are reasonable or at least somewhat plausible explanations for all these and the many more I could list. However “shut up and accept it, kook” is not an explanation.
[AndyE]I do think we need better controls on mail-in ballots. I’m not a fan of just mailing them out to everyone. I think that is ripe for abuse. I also think there needs to be a bipartisan process that verifies signatures, addresses, eligibility (not dead, resident, turned in on time, etc), and a counting process that doesn’t go on-and-on. To me, the two most suspicious things about this election are (1) the alleged low reject rate for mail-in ballots and (2) the surprising enthusiasm for Biden that produced such a large vote count for him.
I get your concerns. And having concerns is legitimate. Propogating lies of widespread fraud are another thing. Which is what you see Trump doing and what you see most evangelicals and the right sitting by and allowing it to happen. When we started, I also had concerns about mail-in ballots. And I have no doubt that there were isolated causes of fraud. We live in a sinful nation with sinful people, and that is going to happen, no matter what is done. With that said, it increasingly became clear that this was not the case. The fact that practically none of the lawsuits brought forward allege fraud, and the fact that all of them except one based on a very tiny procedural issue lost, further supported this. In my opinion, given the scrutiny, this was probably one of the most secure elections, although there is always room to grow and become better.
The large vote for Biden was not unexpected. In fact, everything that played out, played out almost exactly the way the polls were showing. Walk in voting on voting day was going to be predominately Republican. Mail in voting, absentee voting and early voting was going to be predominately Democratic. Biden was leading in the polls up to the day of election. Everything played out. I think in the end this was less about Biden, and more about anti-Trump. I had high hopes for Trump early in his term, but it quickly became clear that he cared less about the right, abortion rights, conservative issues, religious issues…. and more about creating a narrative, creating a bubble around him that acted as an echo chamber, and a focus on getting praise and attention. He craved the crowds and worship that he received from the right and the religious leaders. What we are seeing play out in the last two weeks is classic Trump. The reason why most people didn’t see it was that he was not backed into a corner like he is today, but this is playing out to the same behaviors he had the last 3.5 years. He lies, lies, lies, just like the ruler of this world. And we are okay with that, because he throws us a bone here and there. Christians took it hook line and sinker, just as most of them will be deceived by the AntiChrist. He only cares about himself and that is it. All the rest of the care that he shows is just there to ultimately feed his narcissism and focus on his pride. You see that by watching him sulk in the WH without any concern about the virus or anything else going on. Scripture is replete with God’s anger about this type of rule. I have just finished reading Micah and it was a bit eye opening.
[Robert Byers]You can discount all of this as conspiracy theories or wild speculation, but these are facts. Maybe there are reasonable or at least somewhat plausible explanations for all these and the many more I could list. However “shut up and accept it, kook” is not an explanation.
Sorry Robert, but what you explained is the very foundation of conspiracy theories. “This is most likely not true, because of some unusual things”. Nothing that you pointed out showed a single vote was fraudelently processed. The very nature of conspiracy theories is to only show doubt. I won’t go through all of your points above because I don’t have time. With that said, mail in ballots had a lot of checks and balances. Here is one, poll worker who discusses all of the checks and balances that they had to go through. Again, with the millions and millions of dollars that the campaign, Trump and others are spending and the mountains of evidence that Rudy has, I find it very funny that all 34 of the lawsuits that have been thrown out have cited and total and complete lack of evidence of any fraud. But we can ride the train on this one all day. I have a mountain of Qannon sites for you to spend some time on.
https://www.tmj4.com/news/election-2020/checks-and-balances-inside-the-…
[dgszweda]I think he does genuinely care about America and has worked hard to make things better, but I have to admit that I have soured on him a bit after the election. I have appreciated that he does not cave on issues like most Republicans have, but that head-strong resolve is not helping him now.
I watched a bit of the Biden press conference yesterday and just couldn’t believe America got behind that man. I think America is going to have buyer’s remorse sooner than later. I don’t know how he makes it through his full term.
Discussion