In Which I Consider the Propriety of Tying a Bandanna Around My Head and Coming Off the Top Ropes
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[dmyers]How can God promise to protect Israel from diseases if He is not the “cause and designer” of those diseases? If He has no causal role and no control over diseases, He has no ability to protect His people from them if they obey Him. Why would He say explicitly that He “put [diseases] on the Egyptians” if He hadn’t or wasn’t even able to? He is made a liar and we are made hopeless under your theology.
David, of course this line of discussion takes us into the endless Calvinism vs. Arminianism (and all points in between) debate. I think we should refrain from making conclusions about matters on which the Scriptures are silent. To conclude that God is the cause and designer of all diseases because he makes a promise to protect Israel from certain diseases is to go beyond what the Scripture actually reveals.
Quite clearly God is able to do anything he wants, including allow a broken creation to continue in its breakdown.
Regardless, just because you don’t care for Arminian theology, who are you to say that its adherents are made hopeless? I have yet to see any Christian theology (I don’t include Open Theism as a Christian theology) that is devoid of hope. Arminians and Calvinists and Molinists and others, Bible believers all, hope in Christ. Far from a hopeless theology. Your saying that other theologies are hopeless reflects a kind of spiritual pride that isn’t all that attractive.
In any case, back to the topic at hand, there is NO Scriptural proof that God specifically sent the Wuhan virus for a specific reason. There are plenty of general statements that make it clear God COULD have sent it for a specific reason. Beyond that, it is useless to speculate what that specific reason might be, other than a general wake up call for mankind to get right with God. To say something else goes beyond what the Bible says.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
[Mark_Smith]Yes, God wants to use calamity to lead people to repentance. Amos 3:6, however, is unequivocally asserting (through a rhetorical question that demands an affirmative answer) that God is the One who ultimately has done it whenever calamity comes to a town.The point is that calamity comes from God for the purpose of leading us to repentance.
Yeah, you know, those Idahoans, they’re all backward, ignorant, and insular. No access to TV or cable news; no access to the internet — they don’t even know what those things are. They have no way of knowing what’s happening in Philadelphia or D.C. or the UK, only what’s going on in their teeny tiny backward rural town where everyone is always more than six feet apart at church, at work, at the grocery store (of course, that’s assuming they even have a real job or a grocery store). It’s sad, and certainly justifies the condescending attitudes of the big city boys from Philadelphia and other East Coast utopias of intellectualism and “real world” experience.
Or, put another way, your response to Wilson is a complete fallacy. Do you have a substantive response, or statistics, or anything? Of course as the number of tests increase so does the number of cases; that’s math. And yes there is a way of at least reasonably estimating the maximum number of deaths — the data we already have, especially from contained situations like the Diamond Princess cruise ship (i.e., no more than 1%, and even then only as to an older-skewed population). As more data comes in, that death rate estimate will drop, not rise.
You say you “don’t know what that balance is. I’m not sure anyone does, least those who think they do.” But you’re pretty adamant that the current lock-downs are not an over reaction and that anything less would be an under reaction. You are contradicting yourself on both your competence and the competence of others. And if we’re basing our evaluation of the proper balance on anecdotal experience of “people in our area,” go someplace where the residents are living (bi-monthly) paycheck to paycheck, don’t have the luxury of being considered essential and therefore have been laid off for at least 3-4 weeks (based on fear, not facts), won’t get any government subsidy until May at the earliest, and in the meantime have to feed themselves and their dependents, worry about their credit rating and whether their car will be repossessed in the meantime or whether they’ll get evicted, likely work for a small business that won’t be in existence in May or June or July and therefore can’t count on having a job to go back to if and when they’re allowed to, etc. What part of economic catastrophe for millions of real people do you not understand?
[Don Johnson]David, of course this line of discussion takes us into the endless Calvinism vs. Arminianism (and all points in between) debate. I think we should refrain from making conclusions about matters on which the Scriptures are silent. To conclude that God is the cause and designer of all diseases because he makes a promise to protect Israel from certain diseases is to go beyond what the Scripture actually reveals.Quite clearly God is able to do anything he wants, including allow a broken creation to continue in its breakdown.
Regardless, just because you don’t care for Arminian theology, who are you to say that its adherents are made hopeless? I have yet to see any Christian theology (I don’t include Open Theism as a Christian theology) that is devoid of hope. Arminians and Calvinists and Molinists and others, Bible believers all, hope in Christ. Far from a hopeless theology. Your saying that other theologies are hopeless reflects a kind of spiritual pride that isn’t all that attractive.
In any case, back to the topic at hand, there is NO Scriptural proof that God specifically sent the Wuhan virus for a specific reason. There are plenty of general statements that make it clear God COULD have sent it for a specific reason. Beyond that, it is useless to speculate what that specific reason might be, other than a general wake up call for mankind to get right with God. To say something else goes beyond what the Bible says.
Don, you’re misinformed. My point has nothing to do with Calvinism vs. Arminianism, and couching the issue in those terms is a dodge, not a response — let alone a rebuttal. You say the scriptures are silent, but I just quoted you a single scripture (out of hundreds or more) that is NOT silent, and you made no effort to engage with that scripture. How about the other scriptures that others have cited here? How about the hundreds of other scriptures all proclaiming God’s omnipotence and sovereignty over all kinds of natural disasters, human wrongdoing, and other manifestations of the Fall? Do you really espouse the God of rabbi Kushner (“When Bad Things Happen to Good People”) — the God who is really sorry for us when we suffer but can’t do anything about it and has no control over it, because He’s not really sovereign? I don’t think you do, and I don’t think Steven does either, which is why I encouraged him to do some additional study. I’d encourage you to do the same. You can’t offer yourself or any of your congregants any real hope if all you can tell them is that sometimes these things happen and God had nothing to do with it.
Contrary to the implication of your last paragraph, I made no claim to know the specific reason for the Wuhan virus (you racist, you), nor did I make any effort to speculate. But to say that it wasn’t God or that God didn’t/doesn’t have a reason is, at bottom, blasphemy. I know you don’t want to make that mistake, but you have, and you need to re-evaluate your thinking on this.
Sorry, gotta go to a church council meeting to figure out how some specific ways to care for our congregation now. One thing we won’t be doing is telling them that God isn’t in control or that He has no purpose in any of this.
@ dmyers I’m amazed you could read all of that into what I wrote. I don’t know if Idaho needed lockdown. The only thing I know about the state is potatoes. Like I said it’s context. Wilson’s view is provincial. It may reflect what’s happening there. What is happening in many large cities can’t be compared (yet) to what’s happening in other areas - like PA counties. There are areas harder hit. Wilson’s no expert, you’re no expert, neither am I. I admit my lack of competency in the matter. I’m sorry if the lockdown is affecting you badly.
[RajeshG]Amos 3:6, however, is unequivocally asserting (through a rhetorical question that demands an affirmative answer) that God is the One who ultimately has done it whenever calamity comes to a town.
And… funny that Luke 13 points to Pilate’s role as well. The key idea is NOT that God did something. The important thing is WHY. The next verse, Amos 3:7, says God gives His counsel to His prophets, so the people know how to interpret why something is happening. In Israel’s case, that they know God was punishing them because of their deliberate sin against Him.
[Mark_Smith]Amos 3:6 does not support your notion that the important thing is *why* and not *who*; it plainly reveals that it was God who has done it. The further teaching of 3:7 does not minimize or take away from the importance of what God taught in 3:6 in any way.And… funny that Luke 13 points to Pilate’s role as well. The key idea is NOT that God did something. The important thing is WHY. The next verse, Amos 3:7, says God gives His counsel to His prophets, so the people know how to interpret why something is happening. In Israel’s case, that they know God was punishing them because of their deliberate sin against Him.
[dmyers]Ken, contrast what you believe/don’t believe with what God has said in innumerable places in scripture, including this: ““If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give ear to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, your healer.”
How can God promise to protect Israel from diseases if He is not the “cause and designer” of those diseases? If He has no causal role and no control over diseases, He has no ability to protect His people from them if they obey Him. Why would He say explicitly that He “put [diseases] on the Egyptians” if He hadn’t or wasn’t even able to? He is made a liar and we are made hopeless under your theology.
For your comfort, as well as for your orthodoxy, I urge you as a brother to accept God’s sovereignty over every molecule in creation. As just one resource, I recommend watching or listening to R.C. Sproul’s sermon, “If God Is Good, Why Do I Suffer?” — available here: https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/classic_collection/if-god-is-good-…?
I would agree with you that if God had no power over the coronavirus my theology would be hopeless. However, I absolutely believe that God has power over the coronavirus and could eradicate it in an instant if he chose to. But why does that mean he had to be the one that caused it? I don’t follow the reasoning that God is powerless over a plague unless he is also the cause and designer of it. I’m curious what you would think of the following verses where Jesus had power over disease that was not caused by God, but rather by Satan.
Luke 13:10-16 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.”
The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?”
Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
To me, it seems pretty clear from these verses that God had power over the disease, but it’s also clear that he was not the one who brought the disease. It was the work of Satan.
I don’t think any of us has the ability to know why the coronavirus is here. I won’t be telling the people in my church that God is powerless over the virus, but I also won’t be telling them that he is the cause and designer of it. I will be telling them that although we don’t know the reason why it’s here, God can and will bring purpose to any situation including this one.
[Ken S]I don’t think any of us has the ability to know why the coronavirus is here. I won’t be telling the people in my church that God is powerless over the virus, but I also won’t be telling them that he is the cause and designer of it. I will be telling them that although we don’t know the reason why it’s here, God can and will bring purpose to any situation including this one.
Yes, I would like to know from the experts which “worse sinners” is the coronavirus going after?
The lost hedonists? The drug users? The abortionists?
The “Christians” who never read their Bible, pray, or attend church for any reason other than to check a box and criticize others?
Your divorced Christian brother/sister? The pastor who watches porn in secret? The gossip?
Just who is the target? I would like to know?
And, if you can, explain what the people in nursing homes did that was so bad to get this virus since it is raging in several?
Apart from the debates over divine sovereignty, it strikes me that Proverbs 27:12 marks some of the boundaries; we are called not just to act on the issues we know for sure, but also those we can reasonably foresee, and that would be in light of things like the rate (see article about 34 people infected from one church event, Seattle area nursing home, NY synagogue, etc..) at which people can become infected.
And the more hopeful “flip side” of this is the degree to which this is not happening as people use social distancing to reduce the rate of transmission. And on the light side, this is not from the Babylon Bee; a church has donated their Chick-Fil-A points to buy lunch for 500 hospital workers.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
As we know from the first chapter of Job, Satan can’t do anything without God’s permission. God uses Satan’s activity, just as he uses man’s sin, to accomplish His ordained purposes.
John Piper had a blog post yesterday that probably summarizes the truth better than I would, so I’ll defer to him:
This is not a season for sentimental views of God. It is a bitter season. And God sent it. We know this, because he “works all things according to the counsel of his will” (Ephesians 1:11). All things. Not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from our heavenly Father (Matthew 10:29).
Nature is not sovereign. Satan is not sovereign. Sinful man is not sovereign. God rules them all (Luke 8:25; Job 1:12; 2:6; Acts 4:27–28). So, we say with Job, “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted” (Job 42:2).
Therefore, God not only comprehends the coronavirus; he has purposes for it. God does nothing, and permits nothing, without wise purposes. Nothing just happens. Everything flows from the eternal counsels of God (Ephesians 1:11). All of it is wisdom. All of it is purposeful. For those who trust Jesus Christ, all of it is kindness. For others, it is a merciful wake-up call: “Let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price” (Revelation 22:17).
Hope this helps.
Maybe a test case to see who was right. Sweden isn’t going to the draconian measures of other countries. Time will tell.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Maybe a test case to see who was right. Sweden isn’t going to the draconian measures of other countries. Time will tell.
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/sweden-refuses-to-lockdown-the-coun…
As someone who has relatives in Sweden, Sweden doesn’t need to shut down their country because they already socially distance themselves at least 6 ft. Its part of their culture. Check out the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JHgLF6X9KU
Per Joel’s comment, I’m hoping for obvious reasons that Scandinavian culture will be helpful in Minnesota, too. :^)
Seriously, as someone who was working significantly from home even before Minnesota’s governor issued quarantine orders, I have to note that a lot of thinking people were self-quarantining way before then. So the government led quarantine is, in my view, simply a way of persuading rebellious people to do what they should have been doing already.
And like Joel says, north of the Italian Alps and east of the Rhine, all the way into Scandinavia, there are some very conformist social habits combined with greater social distance. So they might not need to issue government orders there in the same way that they do south of the Alps. Either way, though, they’re aiming for about the same behaviors.
And a ministry thought for those who (a) have survived and cleared COVID-19 and (b) have ministry experience or predilection; it’s said that a lot of people are dying alone from COVID-19, and might benefit hugely from someone who is “safe” to simply sit by them, maybe call relatives from time to time, etc..
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
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