By SI Filings Oct 09 2019 Donald TrumpEvangelical Support of TrumpRobert Jeffress"Friday, President Donald Trump told the nation he believes a revival is coming because of his struggle with the media and Democrats....Pastor Robert Jeffress of First Baptist Dallas agrees with the President." - Christian Headlines 1218 reads There are 26 Comments Even as a NeverTrumper, I Joel Shaffer - Wed, 10/09/2019 - 10:33am Even as a NeverTrumper, I didn't take Trump to mean that he was spearheading a Spiritual revival. Rather that certain conservative Christians are being "electrified" which I take means mobilized to support Trump and fight back against the liberals and media-especially with talk of impeachment. There is some truth to this, but like many other things he says, alot of embellishment and exaggeration too. I am not alone.... DLCreed - Wed, 10/09/2019 - 11:21am "Even as a NeverTrumper.." You mean there's two of us here???? :-D Not just two Bert Perry - Wed, 10/09/2019 - 12:51pm I wasn't a "Never Trumper", especially after the primaries made clear that it was "The Donald vs. Hilliary", but there's more than two here. Look around, DL, you'll figure out who soon enough. This article is a great example of a proverb I've seen about politics. The left, as well as others who despise Trump, generally take him literally, but not seriously. Trump's supporters take him seriously, but not literally. And on the light side, when I saw the phrase "biggest pastors", my instant thought was "yes, a lot of our spiritual leaders seriously need to go on a diet." Which is a not that much worse criterion for deciding who's the "biggest" than church attendance, book sales, or whatever. The statement was probably pure Trumpian hyperbole, but it does illustrate our culture's infatuation with "bigness", and the hazards thereof. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud. Me To Makes Three Joeb - Wed, 10/09/2019 - 10:56pm I’m a never Trumper to. There is more than you think on Sharper Iron. Even I was surprised. I don’t agree with Trump’s statement. Most of the Pastors backing Trump equate obeying Trump is the same as obeying God. If that’s revival I’ll have none of that. And now it's four Kevin Miller - Wed, 10/09/2019 - 11:49pm Although making this thread a never Trumper roll call is probably a bit off topic. 5 TylerR - Thu, 10/10/2019 - 6:29am Me, too. Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and an Investigations Manager with a Washington State agency. He's the author of the book What's It Mean to Be a Baptist? Six GregH - Thu, 10/10/2019 - 7:19am Six Trump support on SI dcbii - Thu, 10/10/2019 - 10:21am And most of those of us who are not "Never Trumpers" are, at most, "Reluctant Trumpers" given the other choices. While there might be a few really enthusiastic Trump supporters here, I haven't seen many, and I've seen none who think we need to back everything Trump, get behind a "Trump 'revival'", or think he's the greatest president, or great Christian, or even someone of great character, etc., etc. I'll admit there's a certain, let's say, guilty pleasure, that some of us are tempted to feel seeing someone actually willing to get down in the mud and fight back with all the mud that is slung our way, but that doesn't translate to thinking that this is the kind of person I feel would make the best type of leader. At the moment, however, I've got no one better (that actually has a serious chance) to get behind. Until that changes, "reluctant Trump" as my voting philosophy is around for the foreseeable future. Dave Barnhart Fighting Back G. N. Barkman - Thu, 10/10/2019 - 2:16pm I'm convinced that Trump's willingness to fight back is why his base is so enthusiastic about him. They've never seen a Republican do this before. Democrats have been fighting dirty for decades, starting with "borking" Bork, if not before, and Republicans have largely taken it on the chin and refused to retaliate. Finally, someone is willing to "give as good as he takes" and the fight seems winnable. Maybe. It's still lopsided, with government devotees and mainstream media fighting tooth and nail. Until now, it's seemed impossible to defend against such a steady onslaught, and lo and behold, a President who might, just might fight back and prevail. He's not sophisticated, principled, nor clean. But maybe that's the only kind who can duke it out with the unprincipled progressives. It may not be a completely fair fight, but amazingly, Trump is holding his own. So far. And that's why so many like him. Finally, a Goliath who is willing to face down a whole swarmy army. G. N. Barkman I'm convinced that Trump's Joel Shaffer - Thu, 10/10/2019 - 6:02pm I'm convinced that Trump's willingness to fight back is why his base is so enthusiastic about him. They've never seen a Republican do this before. Democrats have been fighting dirty for decades, starting with "borking" Bork, if not before, and Republicans have largely taken it on the chin and refused to retaliate. Finally, someone is willing to "give as good as he takes" and the fight seems winnable. Maybe. It's still lopsided, with government devotees and mainstream media fighting tooth and nail. Until now, it's seemed impossible to defend against such a steady onslaught, and lo and behold, a President who might, just might fight back and prevail. He's not sophisticated, principled, nor clean. But maybe that's the only kind who can duke it out with the unprincipled progressives. It may not be a completely fair fight, but amazingly, Trump is holding his own. So far. And that's why so many like him. Finally, a Goliath who is willing to face down a whole swarmy army. I think Republicans have a short memory about their presidents who fight back and prevail. Reagan fought the democrats, even causing a record 8 government shutdowns and he did it in a much more winsome way. He didn't resort to the constant low-brow, slanderous, dirty, lying, political fighting that we find ourselves in and where conservative Christians seem to justify it because "the unprincipled Democrats" did it first. Even as I say this, I have no problem with the "hold-your-nose" Trump voters because Hillary was just as big, or you could argue a bigger nightmare than Trump. Trump Is Going To Win 2020 Joeb - Thu, 10/10/2019 - 9:58pm Trump is going to win 2020. However I don’t buy into Donald causing a revival in America. The only thing that will cause a revival in America is if the local Church commits to serving the Lord. The one thing I saw that really did impressed me was the article I read about a group of African American United Methodist Congregations in Mississippi wanting to leave the United Methodist Church because they were tired of the Gay debate (Cultural Wars) and wanted to concentrate on changing hearts and minds through Christ at the local level. Seems to me the group of Pastors had the right answer versus a Donald Trump lead spiritual revival. Sadly to many Christian Republican Righties are more focused on the Donald Trump revival. Not betting on that! Aaron Blumer - Fri, 10/11/2019 - 7:14am On winning 2020.... At the moment 51% of Americans want him both impeached and thrown out of office. The usual approval rating polls don't add up very well for him either. Aaron Blumer wrote: dcbii - Fri, 10/11/2019 - 8:21am Aaron Blumer wrote: On winning 2020.... At the moment 51% of Americans want him both impeached and thrown out of office. The usual approval rating polls don't add up very well for him either. Definitely not betting on him winning easily. However, the polls were so wrong last election, I'm not really paying any attention to them any more. They pretty much seem to express the opinions of those who are willing to answer polls, and that's not likely a very representative sample. Dave Barnhart Two things I don't get these GregH - Fri, 10/11/2019 - 9:05am Two things I don't get these days: 1) Why people that say that Trump is "fighting back" don't reach the conclusion that he is the epitome of what he is supposed to be fighting. He is the perfect swampy politician: dishonest, ineffective, corrupt. I can't think of any politician more dishonest, corrupt and ineffective actually. 2) Why roles are reversed. Most of the avid Trump supporters in evangelicalism are older and more conservative. Normally, they are the ones pontificating how worldly evangelicals (especially younger ones) are. Yet they excuse or at least rationalize away Trump's character and all that he represents. It is the young (liberal) crowd that is offended by his behavior. Or to put it another way, my wife and I went to a Carrie Underwood concert last night. It seemed fine to me. Maybe some of her lyrics are bad. I wouldn't really know because I could not understand her lyrics last night. But otherwise, it was just a good, wholesome (if loud) show. I wonder why many that defend Trump would have a problem with me going to see Carrie Underwood because (God forbid) she has drums but would not have a problem with me watching the Trump rally which was occurring at the same time, filled with lies, hate, and cursing. Wed TylerR - Fri, 10/11/2019 - 10:34am On Wed, an older man in the congregation did what he usually does, and said we need to pray for our country and our president because "forces" are trying to destroy everything. He means Democrats are evil, and Republicans (those who have accepted President Trump as their Lord and Savior) are right. I was the closest I've ever been to making political statements that night. Instead, I smiled politely and ignored the prayer request. This Christian America perspective is increasingly seen among those 60+ for whom Saint Reagan is very special. I can't wait for this perspective to die in the church. Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and an Investigations Manager with a Washington State agency. He's the author of the book What's It Mean to Be a Baptist? GregH wrote: dcbii - Fri, 10/11/2019 - 12:43pm GregH wrote: Two things I don't get these days: 1) Why people that say that Trump is "fighting back" don't reach the conclusion that he is the epitome of what he is supposed to be fighting. He is the perfect swampy politician: dishonest, ineffective, corrupt. I can't think of any politician more dishonest, corrupt and ineffective actually. 2) Why roles are reversed. Most of the avid Trump supporters in evangelicalism are older and more conservative. Normally, they are the ones pontificating how worldly evangelicals (especially younger ones) are. Yet they excuse or at least rationalize away Trump's character and all that he represents. It is the young (liberal) crowd that is offended by his behavior. 1. How would our conclusions about his character change things? First, there are plenty of other politicians out there at least as corrupt and dishonest, though presented in a way to hide it and make it seem more respectable. As to effectiveness, it will take at least a few years of history to decide that. Of course Christians should want someone honest and not corrupt. Most of us voted for one of those. Our choices didn't win the primaries. Now that he's what we have, we want him to attempt to carry out some of the things he promised, and we want him to succeed at that. He may not be anywhere near the best ambassador for the U.S. that could be (I've compared him to Samson personally), but as he's now the leader, I'm going to pray for him and his salvation, and pray that God would allow us to live our quiet lives in godliness and honesty. In the meantime, Samson will win some and lose some against the Philistines, until God replaces him. And yes, I will cheer when the Philistines lose, even if our champion sometimes doesn't seem much better than the opposition. That's not praise for our leader -- it's praising when evil has to temporarily take a step back. 2. This one is pretty easy for me to understand. History. People my age and older have seen more than the young people, and we don't like the way things have been trending overall. Trump is actually attempting to put some brakes on some of that. Young people rarely see much history. Trump is uncouth, and certainly appears unsophisticated compared to suave politicians like Clinton, Obama, or even Bush. Bush's character was much more acceptable than Trump's, but he did little to fight against the mud being thrown by the other side, and some of the things he did accomplish (like the Patriot Act or the Iraq war) are not all positive either. (And BTW, the young think Bush is terrible too.) It's interesting to me that Trump's behavior is supposedly what is putting off the young, when there are plenty of those out there just as corrupt (or more) but just hide it better. That would indicate to me that it's all appearance, and as long as the politician provides what the young want (like free college and health care), and appear to adhere to current PC doctrine, it won't matter to them whether their leaders are corrupt. If they fail to provide those things, they will be turned on, just as they turn on sports figures and celebrities who all of a sudden are not woke enough or run afoul of current thinking. Trump is all things evil to them, he isn't suave and sophisticated, AND he opposes what they think. Of course they will be offended. Dave Barnhart Reagan was the Gold Standard G. N. Barkman - Sat, 10/12/2019 - 9:36am Who wouldn't love to have Ronald Reagan back again! But there was only one of him. He did fight back with a fair degree of success, and did so in a gracious, humorous, and effective manner. Trump is no Reagan, but he's the first since Reagan who has been willing to engage the left in battle and persevere, something neither Bush seemed willing nor able to do. The left has been able to operate with minimal opposition for a long time. Trump is fighting back. That, I believe, is the primary reason he is so lated by Progressives, and loved by many Conservatives. Yes, it's a "hold your nose" type of appreciation, but for many, that's better than the rolling over and giving up mentality they've seen for too long. G. N. Barkman An important read on all this Aaron Blumer - Sun, 10/13/2019 - 7:54am New Statement from Checks and Balances on President Trump’s Abuse of Office ...from 16 conservative lawyers with top-level bona fides Good Read Aaron Joeb - Sun, 10/13/2019 - 7:40pm Aaron I concur with the the Attorney's position but the Evangelicals and the Christian Right Leaders and Legislators are totally blind. They seek heaven on this earth and they view Trump as a way to attain it. They are also drunk with the power that Trump has brought them. Aaron I sadly still believe this whole thing is absurd theater and nothing will come of it. I fully expect Trump to get re-elected because the Democrats have no one that can counter Trump. The Evangelical Christians in the Midwest absolutely love him. A good number of churches in the rural areas in the Midwest are Lilly White and lets be totally honest some are RACIST. I pointed out before a mid 30s GARB trained Pastor told me that our Country needs to go back to the 1950s and what was done to the African Americans in this Country was exaggerated. Aaron I maybe repeating myself however I have heard that 1950s Nonsense before from two other GARB Bible College trained Pastors. It's right out of the White Supremacist/NAZI playbook. If I'm wrong why do Iowans still elect Congressman King. Bottomline for all of us is everything is in the Lord's hands. The above is just my opinion and opinions are like bottoms. We all have one. Joeb Mark_Smith - Sun, 10/13/2019 - 8:52pm So "midwestern evangelical" "lily white" people support Trump because they are fascist nazi racists? Not what he said Aaron Blumer - Sun, 10/13/2019 - 9:19pm Not what he said, Mark. Note the word some. It matters... and does anyone seriously doubt there are "some" like that? JoeB, all I can say about GARBC on that point is that I have never heard anything of the kind you have described. The reelection of King is a sad commentary, but it obviously doesn't follow that all white people in Iowa are racist. That would be another unfair stereotype... ("statism"?) We should all avoid overgeneralizing. GARBC TylerR - Sun, 10/13/2019 - 11:08pm The GARBC doesn't have "official" institutions any longer, so no man is "GARB trained." If any man utters nonsense like what Joeb says, I guarantee you it's a reflection of his culture and personal convictions, not his theological training. Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and an Investigations Manager with a Washington State agency. He's the author of the book What's It Mean to Be a Baptist? No reason to investigate? Bert Perry - Mon, 10/14/2019 - 9:56am Aaron, one thing that bothers me about your link is that those writing it assume that an investigation of the Bidens would be "meritless". Um, you've got a guy kicked out of the Navy for failing drug tests (yet amazingly not prosecuted), and he gets two sweet new gigs with companies closely bound to the Ukrainian and Chinese governments for which he's not qualified, and these guys don't see anything worth investigating? Really? Even after Biden bragged about getting the prosecutor fired while that prosecutor was investigating the company which employed his son? Now you might not have been able to prove anything there--the agreements were probably oral and limited to a few people who could be trusted not to talk until they were "squeezed" that way--but let's not pretend an investigation of this kind of arrangement is "meritless." It's at the core of the question of whether our public servants ought to be able to peddle influence for money. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud. Aaron Blumer wrote: Mark_Smith - Mon, 10/14/2019 - 10:00am Aaron Blumer wrote: Not what he said, Mark. Note the word some. It matters... and does anyone seriously doubt there are "some" like that? I think it is fair to say that by "some" joeb means "a whole lot" rather than "very few." After all, if only a small amount are racist and supporting Trump, why does Trump have so much support? Joeb's entire argument is irrelevant if the evangelical Trump support that is racist is small. Why bring it up then? If only a small amount of the evangelical Trump support is racist, then there must be another reason why they are supporting Trump. Joeb says the main reason is they are racist. Am I wrong? I apologize If I Pushed To Far Joeb - Mon, 10/14/2019 - 6:48pm I know it's not all but that's what I have heard out of Pastors from the Midwest is the 50s thing and that what was done to African Americans in this Country was exaggerated. The 50s thing is a somewhat of a common rant in Fundy/Evangelical Circles. Cities and towns in the Midwest rural areas are the last being diversified and Trump's racist statements and dog whistles resonates with these communities because they are not happy with diversification legal or illegal. Evangelicals are part of that group My experience with White Evangelicals from all Lilly White rural areas of Pa is they associate being black as being a Criminal right off the bat. They have no idea of nor understanding of what it is like to be minority at all. Example in Pa: In 2000 Hazleton Pa was 95 % White. Now it's half or more Hispanic. 90 % are legal US Citzens of Dominican decent who relocated from NY. 10 % are illegal. Yet the Republicans have them all marked as illegals and welfare king and queens. That's the whole of it and that's why most African American Christians don't get along with White Evangelicals. . My experience.... Bert Perry - Tue, 10/15/2019 - 1:04pm ....is that I grew up in a town that was about half people who had fled Gary when blacks started moving into that town. Now there were offenses on both sides--you had neighborhood breakers working with realtors to basically scare people off, and on the flip side Mayor Hatcher prohibited real estate "for sale" signs in the city (no kidding), but suffice it to say that the end result was not a particularly nuanced view of racial issues. And yes, African-Americans pick up on that. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.