Jerry Falwell, Jr. Calls Russell Moore Out, Says He's Part of the 'SBC Deep State'

The story incorrectly identifies Moore as “a progressive,” … seems unaware that there are conservatives who are not Trump fans.

I have been puzzled at times by statements made by Russell Moore. He’s certainly not a typical conservative. However, I believe he deserves a fair hearing. And if you ever hear him preach, you will be surprised by the fire coming from a seminary professor with a doctorate. He sounds like a camp meeting revival preacher with a solid knowledge of Scripture. He’s an enigma all right.

Wikipedia

Deep Throat is the pseudonym given to the secret informant who provided information in 1972 to Bob Woodward, who shared it with Carl Bernstein. Woodward and Bernstein were reporters for The Washington Post, and Deep Throat provided key details about the involvement of U.S. President Richard Nixon’s administration in what came to be known as the Watergate scandal.

I’m not seeing a resemblance…. Moore as whistleblower? I’m not seeing the connection, other than the “critic of a president of questionable character” scenario.

Aaron wrote:

The story incorrectly identifies Moore as “a progressive,” … seems unaware that there are conservatives who are not Trump fans.

I can personally attest that for many Trump supporters, not being a Trump fan = progressive. It doesn’t matter what else one says or writes or does, publicly expressing that you are not a fan of Trump earns one death threats because you are the enemy of America.

Holbrook as Deep Throat: “Just follow the money …:

All I can say about Dave’s quip is that I’m glad the reference is Watergate. Worth noting is that since Moore is very open about what he believes and who’s saying things, the analogy breaks down a bit. He’s quite different from many Southern Baptists, but not a total mystery.

Regarding Falwell’s comment, even apart from the dispute over Trump or whatever else, it’s depressing to see Falwell setting up a circular firing squad over conformity in the denomination he says he loves. There is a place for serious, reasoned disagreement with Moore, but I would submit that that place is not potshots on Twitter.

I really don’t like Moore, and he has some shaky associations. He is a main proponent of the social justice nonsense that has caught fire in the SBC

I really don’t like Moore, and he has some shaky associations. He is a main proponent of the social justice nonsense that has caught fire in the SBC

Moore is a Carl FH Henry disciple. If you read Henry, you will understand why Moore advocates for Social Justice. Sadly, the vast majority of anti-social justice folks within the SBC (and outside the SBC as well) do not have the intellectual chops to discern whether Moore is being influenced by Dr. Henry or the cultural Marxism and the critical race theory that they continually accuse him and others of.

On critical race theory, cultural marxism, TGC has a post today, now up in Filings: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/incompatibility-critical-the…

I definitely don’t always agree with Moore. “Progressive” doesn’t even come close though. In general, the right needs to become more aware of “Trump-critical conservatism” (TCC) (many Trump-critical conservatives voted for him anyway, but remain unenthusiastic about several things he’s doing policy-wise, as well as his general character. Unfortunately, outlets such as The Bulwark frequently overstate the situation—and wrap their ideas in excessive vitriol. There are too few thoughtful TCC outlets being heard these days. NR and Washington Examiner are sometimes helpful and not, on the whole, Trump sycophants.)

On critical race theory, cultural marxism, TGC has a post today, now up in Filings: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/incompatibility-critical-theo…

The primary author of this article, Neil Shenvi, has really been a voice of reason and theology among the “social justice” war that is happening within Conservative Evangelicalism. Check out his apologetics blog if you want to a good primer on the current topics of critical race theories, social justice, and some great reviews of books that have come out on racial reconciliation and social justice. There are some minor disagreements that I have with what he says, but he has a far better balance than most of the CE critics (Pyromaniacs, G3 conference whose critiques are quite difficult for me to take seriously) of the conservative evangelical social justice movement. https://shenviapologetics.com/topics/

[Paul Henebury]

I really don’t like Moore, and he has some shaky associations. He is a main proponent of the social justice nonsense that has caught fire in the SBC

Yes, but guilt by association was, and will always be, a fallacy. Regarding social justice, I think the debate needs to be had over what Moore and others have actually said. Most of the arguments against Moore are actually accusing him and others of going down a “slippery slope” (another fallacy, BTW) in order to connect them with the furthest realms of liberalism. Again, count your fallacies, and you’re going to need your toes before you’re done.

Merely stating that Moore has “some shaky associations” does not commit the guilt by association fallacy any more than does an Apostle stating “evil company corrupts good habits” (1 Cor. 15:33). Is a parent guilty of fallacious thinking by warning their teenager about the dubious friends of someone they have started hanging around? It is just an observation.

I am content to wait and see. In the meantime I do appreciate your take on many issues. You clearly know what you’re talking about.

Joel,

I have had several interactions with “woke” brethren about my “white privilege” and I have read all 6 volumes of Carl’ Henry’s God, Revelation & Authority plus some of his other works (have you?).

Carl Henry would not have agreed with talk of white privilege and reparations, and he would have been horrified at the goings-on at Southeastern (if this young man is to be believed). Maybe I don’t have the “intellectual chops” to understand Carl Henry and you do? Maybe Phil Johnson and Fred Butler aren’t at your level either, otherwise they would be more discerning?

Look, I think you offer a needed counter to this SJW concern, but don’t insult those you disagree with.

Finally, Trump: If people are waiting for Caesar to become a saint they will be waiting in vain. One “bad man” can have better policies and be more Christian friendly than another “bad man.” Choose wisely.

Paul, if you say he has some shaky associations, but do not provide evidence for what those associations are doing, and how you would allege Moore is influenced by them, yes, you are committing textbook guilt by association fallacies.

For that matter, the same thing goes for the parent who warns their teenager about their friends. There is a huge difference between being a friend of partiers/fornicators, and participating in their sins, and fundagelicals in general need to learn that principle. There is an awful lot of ministry that we’re missing out on because we’re training ourselves to avoid people like tax collectors, the woman at the well, and the like.

There may be something very real and objectionable about what Moore says, but it needs to start with what he’s actually saying, and we need to avoid basic logical fallacies as we do so. If we don’t, we can end up in the place Jon Harris does in that video you linked; 16 minutes in, he had said precisely nothing related to his ostensible topic.

Bert,

With respect, you stated, “we need to avoid basic logical fallacies… If we don’t, we can end up in the place Jon Harris does in that video you linked; 16 minutes in, he had said precisely nothing related to his ostensible topic.”

This implies that the whole video is not going to present evidence (eyewitness evidence) because the guy waffles in the first 16 minutes. It commits the fallacy of composition.

Further, I cited 1 Cor. 15:33. In the context I cannot find Paul giving actual evidence of such, but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t any. You still claim I am guilty of committing guilt by association. Fair enough. I have committed many such blunders and will doubtless do so again. But I am not persuaded in this instance. Here is a basic definition of the fallacy:

” A guilt by association fallacy occurs when someone connects an opponent to a demonized group of people or to a bad person in order to discredit his or her argument. The idea is that the person is “guilty” by simply being similar to this “bad” group and, therefore, should not be listened to about anything.”

I did not connect Moore with a demonized group in order to discredit him. Neither did I say that he doesn’t deserve a hearing. Of course he does!

I think Thomas Littleton and Todd Friel have done some helpful work here. The MLK50 Conference marked a definite political play to my mind. I may be wrong on Moore. I was just giving a passing opinion.

If you are going to sniff out every logical fallacy on these boards you might also look at your own hasty generalizations and ad hominen. E.g. “There is a huge difference between being a friend of partiers/fornicators, and participating in their sins, and fundagelicals in general need to learn that principle.”

On a personal front, my wife and I regularly host people from the local theatre and college at our house. They include transgender, homosexuals, radical leftists, pot growers, etc. Am I missing tax collectors and harlots? Guilty as charged.