Let's Get Clear On This
A variety of electronic periodicals reach my inbox regularly. One that arrives nearly every day is published by a retired seminary professor. Most days I derive a great deal of pleasure and often profit from glancing through his cogitations.
Today’s number, however, evoked a bit of concern. The dear fellow was reprinting some criticisms that he had received. Here is what they said.
The oft-repeated mantra coming out of Dr. Piper and Dr. Storms is that it is impossible for human beings to enjoy too much pleasure. We are made for pleasure, but it’s the pleasure of enjoying God. These guys are full-bore new evangelicals and Piper is a hard line Calvinist…. Why are you promoting this sort of thing?
While I can appreciate many things coming out of Dr. Piper’s ministry, are you endorsing such a leading New Evangelical with no disclaimer?…I am sure you do not endorse the New Evangelicalism that is Dr. Piper’s ministry, but when we simply laud a New Evangelical by attending his conference and praising it, that is the result at the practical level.
These responses are typical of the way that some Fundamentalists view conservative evangelicals in general. These men apparently divide all American Christians into only two categories: Fundamentalists and neo-evangelicals. If a Christian leader is not recognized as a Fundamentalist, then he is considered to be a new evangelical, with all the opprobrium that follows.
This binary system of classification is far too simplistic. American Christianity never has been neatly divided between new evangelicals and Fundamentalists. Other groups have always existed, and one of them is the group that we now designate as conservative evangelicals.
Conservative evangelicalism encompasses a diverse spectrum of Christian leaders. Representatives include John Piper, Mark Dever, John MacArthur, Charles Ryrie, Bruce Ware, Bryan Chapell, Wayne Grudem, D. A. Carson, Al Mohler, Tim Keller, John D. Hannah, Ed Welch, Ligon Duncan, Tom Nettles, C. J. Mahaney, Norman Geisler, and R. C. Sproul. Conservative evangelical organizations include Together for the Gospel (T4G), the Gospel Coalition, the Master’s Seminary, the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, the National Association of Nouthetic Counselors, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (at least in its better moments), and Ligonier Ministries. These individuals and organizations exhibit a remarkable range of differences, but they can be classed together because of their vigorous commitment to and defense of the gospel.
Both mainstream ecumenicals and Left-leaning evangelicals would like to classify these individuals as Fundamentalists. Conservative evangelicals, however, do not perceive themselves as Fundamentalists. Most Fundamentalists also recognize some differences. While there are similarities between them, enough differences remain that Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals ought to be distinguished from each other.
What are those differences? Anti-dispensationalism seems to be more widely characteristic of conservative evangelicalism than it is of Fundamentalism, though it is less vitriolic than the anti-Calvinism of some Fundamentalists. Toleration of Third-Wave charismatic theology is widely accepted among conservative evangelicals but universally rejected among Fundamentalists. Conservative evangelicals are willing to accommodate the more contemporary versions of popular culture, while Fundamentalists restrict themselves to older manifestations. Most importantly, Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals still do not agree about what to do with Christian leaders who make common cause with apostates.
Conservative evangelicals are different from Fundamentalists, but they are not new evangelicals. New evangelicals were committed to a policy of re-infiltrating ecclesiastical organizations that had been captured by apostates. They wanted to live in peaceful coexistence with apostasy. They were willing to recognize certain apostates as fellow-Christians and to cooperate with them in the Lord’s work. These are attitudes that conservative evangelicals explicitly reject. To apply this label to a conservative evangelical is completely unwarranted.
Frankly, conservative evangelicals do seem to take doctrine more seriously today than many Fundamentalists do. Not that the Fundamentalists are unwilling to discuss doctrine! Many of them are at this moment arguing for a “biblical” doctrine of the perfect preservation of the King James Version or of the Textus Receptus. Others have speculated that the work of redemption was not completed until Christ carried His material blood into the heavenly tabernacle, there to abide as a perpetual memorial before the presence of the Father. Still others have engaged in shrill campaigns of anti-Calvinism while defending theories of human nature that almost beg to be described as Pelagian. Such Fundamentalists are too numerous to be dismissed as aberrations—indeed, their tribe seems to be increasing.
Conservative evangelicals have oriented themselves by fixed points of doctrine. They have scoured apostasy from the world’s largest seminary. They have debunked Open Theism. They have articulated and defended a Complementarian position against evangelical feminism. They have rebutted the opponents of inerrancy. They have exposed and refuted the New Perspective on Paul. They have challenged the Emergent Church and laid bare its bankruptcy.
In other words, because many Fundamentalists appear to have lost their doctrinal sobriety, the initiative for defending the gospel has shifted from Fundamentalism to conservative evangelicalism. Conservative evangelicals have majored on the centrality of the gospel and the exaltation of God. Rather than centering themselves upon theological novelties and idiosyncrasies, they have given themselves to a defense of the Faith.
Nevertheless, some Fundamentalists have managed to convince themselves that conservative evangelicals are the enemy. They insist that John Piper is a neo-evangelical. They actually hope to limit his influence—and the influence of other conservative evangelicals—in their churches and among their younger generation.
The apostle Paul insisted that he was “set for the defense of the gospel.” Fifty years ago, that phrase appeared on nearly every Fundamentalist ordination certificate. Today, however, Fundamentalists simply allow others to defend the gospel for them. The sad truth is that the most forceful defenders of the gospel are no longer to be found within the Fundamentalist camp.
To be sure, significant differences continue to exist between Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. Those differences, however, are less serious than the ones that exist between the various camps within Fundamentalism. For example, many Fundamentalist churches and institutions have capitulated to the error of King James Onlyism. Many Fundamentalists are willing to tolerate and even idolize arrogant and egotistical leaders. Many Fundamentalists are willing to live with doctrinal shallowness and trivial worship in their pulpits and in their hymnals. Many Fundamentalists continue to believe that manipulative Revivalism will produce vibrant Christians. Who could deny that these matters are serious?
Of course, many Fundamentalists reject these errors as well. Nevertheless, the errors that are tolerated within Fundamentalism are every bit as great as the errors that were committed by the new evangelicalism. They are certainly greater than the differences that exist between mainstream, historic Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals.
Upcoming young leaders are uncertain about the future of Fundamentalism and about their future with it. And no wonder. One Fundamentalist college recently advertized that it does not teach Greek to theology majors. Why? Because the school has an “absolute conviction that the King James Bible is God’s perfect, preserved Word for the English Speaking World.” Contrast that school’s approach with D. A. Carson’s essays in his upcoming book, Collected Writings on Scripture. If young leaders are forced to choose between these two approaches, I have no doubt which choice they will make.
More and more Fundamentalists are coming to the same conclusion. They are not entering into full cooperation with conservative evangelicals, but they are working together in certain targeted areas. Quiet conversations have been occurring between some Fundamentalist leaders and some conservative evangelical leaders for several years. One seminary recently hosted John D. Hannah for a lecture series, and another hosted Ed Welch. A Fundamentalist mission agency brought in John Piper to challenge its missionaries. A leader who is a Fundamentalist pastor and seminary president has written for a conservative evangelical periodical. A very straight-laced Bible college sent its students to T4G. One elder statesman of Fundamentalism chose to preach in the chapel of a conservative evangelical seminary. Other Fundamentalist schools are slated to host Michael Vlach from Master’s Seminary and Mark Dever from Capital Hill Baptist Church. These steps are being taken, not by disaffected young Fundamentalists, but by the older generation of leadership within the mainstream of the Fundamentalist movement.
These leaders are neither abandoning Fundamentalism nor embracing conservative evangelicalism. They are simply recognizing that the Fundamentalist label is no guarantee of doctrinal fidelity. They are aware that historic, mainstream Fundamentalism has more in common with conservative evangelicals than it does with many who wear the Fundamentalist label.
Even such mild and narrow recognition, however, provokes panic from the Fundamentalist opponents of conservative evangelicals. Like the two critics at the beginning of this essay, these opponents express concern that any level of involvement with conservative evangelicals will constitute a blanket endorsement of their errors. These Fundamentalist critics, however, are seldom willing to express these same concerns over the excesses of the hyper-fundamentalist Right.
We Fundamentalists may not wish to identify with everything that conservative evangelicals say and do. To name these men as neo-evangelicals, nonetheless, is entirely unwarranted. To treat them like enemies or even opponents is to demonize the very people who are the foremost defenders of the gospel today. We do not have to agree in every detail to recognize the value of what they do.
If we did not have conservative evangelicals to guard the borders, the real enemy would have invaded our camp long ago. Fundamentalism has exhibited a remarkable freedom from Open Theism, evangelical feminism, New Perspective theology, and other present-day threats to the gospel. The reason is not that Fundamentalists have kept the enemy at bay. The reason is that other thinkers—mainly conservative evangelicals—have carried the battle to the enemy. Conservative evangelicals are the heavy artillery, under the shelter of whose barrage Fundamentalists have been able to find some measure of theological safety.
So let’s get clear on this.
Conservative evangelicals are not our enemies. They are not our opponents. Conservative evangelicals have proven themselves to be allies and even leaders in the defense of the faith.
If we attack conservative evangelicals, then we attack the defense of the faith. We attack indirectly the thing that we hold most dear, namely, the gospel itself, for that is what they are defending. We should not wish these brothers to falter or to grow feeble, but rather to flourish. We must do nothing to weaken their hand in the face of the enemies of the gospel.
If we believe that we must respond to conservative evangelicalism, then let us begin by addressing the areas in which they have exposed our weakness. Let us refocus our attention upon the exaltation of God. Let us exalt, apply, and defend the gospel in all its fullness. If we were more like what we ought to be, perhaps we would feel less threatened by those whose exploits attract the attention of our followers.
Whatever our differences, I thank God for John Piper. I thank God for Mark Dever. I thank God for John MacArthur. I thank God for D. A. Carson. I thank God for a coalition of Christian leaders who have directed our focus to the centrality of the gospel and the exaltation of God. May their defense of the biblical faith prosper.
Penitentiall Hymns. II.
Jeremy Taylor (1613-1667)
Great God, and just! how canst thou see,
Dear God, our miserie,
And not in mercy set us free?
Poor miserable man! how wert thou born,
Weak as the dewy jewels of the Morn,
Rapt up in tender dust,
Guarded with sins and lust,
Who like Court flatterers waite
To serve themselves in thy unhappy fate.
Wealth is a snare, and poverty brings in
Inlets for theft, paving the way for sin:
Each perfum’d vanity doth gently breath
Sin in thy Soul, and whispers it to Death.
Our faults like ulcerated sores do go
O’re the sound flesh, and do corrupt that too.
Lord, we are sick, spotted with sin,
Thick as a crusty Lepers skin,
Like Naaman, bid us wash, yet let it be
In streams of blood that flow from thee:
Then will we sing,
Touch’d by the heavenly Doves bright wing,
Hallelujahs, Psalms and Praise
To God the Lord of night and dayes;
Ever good, and ever just,
Ever high, who ever must
Thus be sung; is still the same;
Eternal praises crown his Name. Amen.
This essay is by Dr. Kevin T. Bauder, president of Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). Not every professor, student, or alumnus of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
- 195 views
[Don Johnson] But isn’t that what KB is attempting to do with these paragraphs?Don,
…
Yes, he has a little weasel room with the line: “Of course, many Fundamentalists reject these errors as well.”
Yes we do reject these errors, but the way this is presented is that we don’t reject them enough. We ‘tolerate’ them. Right… sure we do.
Are you saying that Kevin is still trying to include himself in those who tolerate the extreme positions he mentions? I’m confused.
As far as “us” tolerating them (the last line of your last post), I will also observe that Chuck Phelps is included alongside Jeff Fugate at Monte’s conference as a speaker.
Just sayin’.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
Fair critique is a Christian virtue and a real discipline, which I am continually learning. I need this kind of character built in my life.
Let Fugate and Monte keep the label, Greg.Well, I have no control over who keeps it and who doesn’t. That being said, I still believe that “Fundamentalist” still has usefulness, and I still use it to describe where our church is in relation to others in our town and area, even as I also distinguish what we are not.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
[Todd Wood] The largest, independent Baptist fundamentalist church in Idaho ( http://tvbc.org/index.htm ) can continue to keep the “independent Baptist fundamentalist” label.I love the picture of the Bible on this page, though: http://tvbc.org/about.htm
Bet it is not really a 1611!
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
I will continue to use the term because that is what my enemies call me, but I like the term “Foundations”, too, mentioned by Matt up in #50.
It is ironic.
There are a lot of battles that I face in 2010. I need discerment in picking which ones to fight, which real enemy that God wants me to be fighting.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
“If we attack conservative evangelicals, then we attack the defense of the faith. We attack indirectly the thing that we hold most dear, namely, the gospel itself, for that is what they are defending. We should not wish these brothers to falter or to grow feeble, but rather to flourish. We must do nothing to weaken their hand in the face of the enemies of the gospel.”
As others have posted in this thread, where is Dr. Bauder’s expressed concern for the theological baggage that these men bring? It’s nowhere to be seen. While I agree that some of what these men have written has been profitable, there is far too much baggage to mute our criticism of them. Some keep pointing the finger at those within Fundamentalism with their bad baggage, and say, see no one is criticizing them, really? I’ve seen numerous postings bringing criticism to these, and rightfully so. And those criticisms far outweigh anything posted against the CEs, even in this thread.
Bauder has this assessment of CEs, “Conservative evangelicals are the heavy artillery, under the shelter of whose barrage Fundamentalists have been able to find some measure of theological safety.” But I’m the one given to hyperbole. I must be missing something, Aaron.
[Greg Linscott] Are you saying that Kevin is still trying to include himself in those who tolerate the extreme positions he mentions? I’m confused.Now, Greg, I think you know what I am saying.
I am not exactly sure where Kevin is trying to include himself. That part is unclear.
[Greg Linscott] As far as “us” tolerating them (the last line of your last post), I will also observe that Chuck Phelps is included alongside Jeff Fugate at Monte’s conference as a speaker.Well, that bothers me a good deal. I have to say I hadn’t noticed that in my first glance at the link you provided. But of course Chuck will have to speak for himself.
Just sayin’.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
But why do we spend so much time in independent, Baptist fundamentalism concerned over how much we should be sounding the alarm and critiquing and separating from Baptist fundamental brothers and Baptist conservative evangelical brothers when secularists, and atheists, and religious others, and liberal emergents are pumping out influential books week after week after week after week after week after week in our country in direct support of the real enemy.
Brother, you live in the West (and have lived in the intermountain west). You know what foot soldiers face. There are apologists (non-Christian orthodox) who are seeking to completely dismantle everything that we hold precious … the very fundamentals of our Christianity … the very foundations of our Christian lives … the very pillar and ground of the truth - the church. Thank God this can’t happen. It is all God’s work. And God can’t be stopped.
But I thank God for men, both fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals, in the theological tools that they have provided for my little workshop in dealing with the raging controversies over the (1) Triune God, (2) creation ex nihilo, (3) two natures of Christ, (4) inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture, (5) man’s depraved nature and original sin, (6) all the facets of the gospel and full salvation- election, predestination, propitiation, psa, sanctification, glorification, etc. (7) and so forth.
The community of Antioch called those believers “Christians” because all they talked about with great joy was Christos, Christos, Christos, Christos …
In 2010, America will probably be calling a certain group of “Christians” in our country “fundamentalists” or “foundationalists” or “Bible-believing essentialists” or whatever because that is all we want to talk about with great joy - the very truths on God and His gospel that set us free from chains.
I rejoice with those brothers in America that have spent a good portion of their adult life in focusing and meditating and preaching and teaching and lecturing and writing and defending with all their hearts on one of those fundamentals. When in the desert, I will lap up the water, whether it comes from a KJVO fundamentalist or a CE. My need for water is so vital.
Brian, while I sit in the trenches with you, I sincerely don’t mind the sincere, loving critique by Bauder given to our own foot soldiers and generals and the sincere, loving appreciation expressed to foot soldiers and generals outside of our trench. I have gained much protective firing from those outside our trench to shield my heart in Christ. I am thankful.
And if the American culture wants to eventually hang us all in this country - I will hang with any brother or sister who fought for a fundamental on our God and the gospel.
earnestly thinking of heart issues,
et
When you increase the requirements for any koinonia to 2nd, 3rd, 4th and even man-constructed systems of belief, you are a wisker away from developing into neo-pharisaism. You actually may have already crossed the border.
Kevin is right on the mark. This is the corrective American Conservative Christianity has needed for years. I don’t think any of us are saying across the board co-ministry. We are saying occasional based on the level of agreement or disagreement.
More later!
Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
[Brian E] where is Dr. Bauder’s expressed concern for the theological baggage that these men bring? It’s nowhere to be seen.I’ll help you find it (-: …
[Kevin Bauder] Anti-dispensationalism seems to be more widely characteristic of conservative evangelicalism than it is of Fundamentalism, though it is less vitriolic than the anti-Calvinism of some Fundamentalists. Toleration of Third-Wave charismatic theology is widely accepted among conservative evangelicals but universally rejected among Fundamentalists. Conservative evangelicals are willing to accommodate the more contemporary versions of popular culture, while Fundamentalists restrict themselves to older manifestations. Most importantly, Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals still do not agree about what to do with Christian leaders who make common cause with apostates.This is really kind of alot of “expressed concern” for a short essay that is actually about something else entirely. Let’s remember that the first couple of paragraphs establish what the essay is about. It’s a reaction to the bad habit of binary thinking… and sloppy criticism of CEs.
By the way, my point about hyperbole was in reference to his, not yours. I think he overstates his point in a few places.
As for the closing the paragraphs, they don’t erase the rest of the piece or what Bauder teaches about anti-dispensationalism, non-cessationism, non-separatism, etc. on a regular basis.
But I do think you (and someone else who mentioned tone imbalance) have accurately observed an imbalance. That is, I think it’s fair to suppose that Kevin is more hot and bothered about what Fundamentalists to his right are doing than he is about what CE’s slightly to his left are doing. I’m mindreading a bit there, which is always hazardous, but if I were him, it would bug me more, too. Why? Several reasons. For one, we’re supposed to be “the good guys,” who have the Bible down better than the other guys. For another, the weaknesses of a movement/cohort/network you are in are more constantly present than those of a group you are not in. In some ways it’s analogous to why it’s more upsetting when your relatives come over and misbehave than when a guy two towns over you bump into once in a while at a conference misbehaves.
In any case, that’s just the emotional factor. Surely we can let the guy be as annoyed as he’s inclined to be. I’m not saying tone is completely unimportant, but it’s far less so than the substance.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Wish you had been here!
Now, just smile and pray for us simpletons in Indiana. We’re going soulwinning!
Just clinging to my guns and religion... www.faithbaptistavon.com
What has always bothered me…..and I mean almost always: From the time I was about 16 or 17 and reading church history and thinking through the issues…..is how in the world Fundamentalism could have the variety it had in the first 30 years, and there be at least some kind of “relationship” and it’s “praise the Lord my brother!” Now, for the last 30 years, some are suggesting - no variety! If you don’t fit into this “steel grid” it’s “sorry my brother….you’re out!” Well…it didn’t make sense to me when I was a teenager - at 41 it’s still is not at all clear.
Rewind. Conservative Evangelicals. These are the guys going “toe to toe” with left-wing and eccuminical evangelicalism, “out and out” liberalism, dangerous “new gospel,” weird Christological Charismaticism (Odd Faith movement - not the variety of Piperism or Grudem-ism that frankly you can find examples of if you look deep enough in the Fundamentalists lake [btw] ), not to mention every bed-brother of evangelical postmodernity [i.e. emergent movement “vis-a-vis” Bixby’s emergent middle that is anything but emergent church!] ). Where are the fundamentalists? Well….we are fellowshipping with the three other guys that part their hair the same way we do. We meet for a nice sub-movement chat where we determine to write resolutions so we can brow beat the other fundamentalists that don’t think or sing or preach or whatever….just like we do (but of course we are not denominational)! We’ll even call them names! Those “pseudo-fundamentalists” bad-guys! And why do we do this? Because to open our arms to conservative evangelicalism is the first step towards loosing the gospel? Have you guys actually been reading what’s happening in the conservative evangelical world the last 15 years? If anything the conservative side of the movement is doing two things - 1) It’s starting to take back sections of the movement as a whole, discharging the liberal-evangelicals to main-line “bases” and 2) Is becoming more and more interested in personal and ecclesiastical separation. In short it’s getting more and more conservative and Biblical in the main. I’m done waiting. They’ve walked far enough and close enough I’m willing to open my arms to some of them. I have more in common with some of them and they with me, than I do with some of you! Some of you are isolationist and worldly while they are “koinonia-minded” and separate (oddly enough!). MacArthur has not replaced Biblical salvation with a works salvation. He’s just emphasizing repentance. To some of you who have down-played the volitional side (i.e. the “submission” part of saving faith), it sounds like works-salvation. This is nothing more than the gospel as spelled out in the Gospels (Repent if you want to be in the Kingdom) as well as James (Saving Faith results in a fruit of works). How in the world can you guys read works-salvation in that? Stop reading Lou and start reading you’re Bibles. To be fair, there have been a few passages that Mac has read his understanding of Lordship salvation that I don’t see in the passage. It is true that one can emphasize repentance disproportionate to faith that you end up switching sanctification with justification. If you read John in context and widely, I don’t believe John has crossed those lines consistently enough to make the charge that he has a false gospel. Remember his over-emphasis at times is within the context of fighting the cheap-grace, non-repentance views of Hodge et al.
Another point - Some of you men cry “foul!” evertime some CE or Fund is not as “dispensational” as you, or not as “cessationist” as you. Fundamentalism in the first generation had a boat-load of variety on the “Holy Spirit - Church - hermeneutics” topic(s)….and yet for the sake of the gospel “There was a cause!” Let me also remind you the apostles were sort of wrong on the whole Dispensational - Kingdom thing and yet Jesus didn’t call them neoevangelicals neither did Jesus practice separation from them…..for that matter he didn’t even separate from Judas (hmmmmm?). So these early fundamentalists wouldn’t hang together at the denominational level, but they sure loved each other at the “such n such” fundamentalist conference…..until they started fighting for control. Listen to Dr. Bob Snyder’s presentation during the Standpont conference we just had (www.standpointconference.com).
Gideon was right when he narrowed the field because God narrowed the field. You guys are narrowing the field on your own. Because of why? Theological consistency? My word. I think not. It’s hard to trust some who practice this kind of “all-or-nothing” kind of fellowship because one guy who is a Baptist, separatist, Calvinist, fundamentalist will have nothing to do with another Baptist, separatist, fundamentalist all because of a single disagreement in methodology. This kind of isolationism makes me ill. I’m confident God is also ill with this kind of thing. I digress.
Here’s what you have -
1. You don’t want to open your arms to these guys because they work with people longer than you would? Well…..Jesus would work longer with some of these than you would! That’s a fact. When Piper stays in the BGC it’s mostly so he can fight to keep the Gospel clear in a denomination he loves and has been associated for decades. For him to leave is AWOL toward the gospel. He has verses that makes him stay and fight (just like our guys had verses that made them fight for years, in some cases decades). In his view, enough of the BGC still has the gospel, Christ and justification to stay. What about Mohler and Dever and others in the SBC. The conservative resurgence speaks for itself. Look, if the Northern Baptist had tasted half of the conservative success in the 20’s & 30’s that the SBC has had in the last two decades their might not have been an IFCA, GARBC or even an FBF!
2. I’m happier with Dever than Mohler. But I’m thrilled with what’s happened at Southern. You have to remember how much has been gained. I’m willing to take a let’s see attitude with Mohler. Frankly many conservative evangelicals who are more “Type C” are limiting their contact with the Mohler-types because of the type of differences that come up like Manhattan. In fairness Mohler’s justification for signing Manhattan was not at all the same type of sentiment behind NE. Read it again. I would not have signed, but I understand why he did.
3. The conservative evangelicals actually practice something Fundamentalists say they do. They practice separation and unity based on direction and over-all ministry. They don’t simply remove fellowship because of this incident or that, but because of a consistent practice. Mohler does not have the same spirit of early NE. If that was the sake he would not have kicked the liberals out of the seminary!!! Because of his continued connection with certain “stuff”, other CE’s are adjusting their connection with him. It took us how many decades to adjust our relationships - and you want to demand a certain conformity to our mess in just a few years? You have to be kidding me.
4. These guys will work out their “inter-evangelical relationships.” I’m an “outsider” and I can see the adjustments between the Shepherd’s Conference type guys - (far right CE - CE type A) with the T4G type guys - (main CE - CE type B) and then the left CE guys - Gospel Coalition types (left CE - CE type C). I understand the overlap between the Shepherd’s Fellowship, T4G and the Gospel Coalition, but you can also see the differences. They are working out their own relationships one with another. I’m willing to give them time to figure it out and encourage the “like-minded” in the mean time. Some of you aren’t even patient enough to work through differences with your fundamentalists brethren, so you noise about these guys not yet solving this sort of rings empty…very empty! To you guys I’m tempted to say “Be Warm - Be Filled - Be Gone!” But being loving and all I’ll try to reach out to you….again.
5. Most CE are careful about their music. Even when they use up-tempo stuff, most of these guys are careful about what comes into their ministry. Don’t kid yourself on the Garlock or even Bauder view of music. You have lost the battle - period. I bet you 80% or higher in your ministries do not agree with you guys on separating from other ministries because of the music thing. I’m not saying “give up!” I actually think it’s virtuous for you to be passionate about your understanding of music, so have at it! I don’t even have a problem with your doing what you do in your local church…..obviously if the congregation allows that then praise God. This is another example though of you taking an internal belief within your own congregation and making that a test of fellowship beyond the Scriptures and beyond your congregation. My bet is you would have been uncomfortable with Worship in the OT covenant community and probably in the early church. I bet you we’ll dance in heaven…don’t worry your new feet will handle the rhythm!
I’m going to try to not say anything else after this post. This will make friend and foe happy. Love keeping everyone happy!
A few random thoughts in the midst of the moment. Enjoying the group hug. Hey these CE actually smell better than the fundamentalists do….once more they hug back! I do understand that it’s hard for some in the Mid-West to enjoy a brotherly hug. It’s not like you guys have allot of affection to begin with. You pile on top of that German/Scandinavian/Separatist base 3 feet of permafrost, plus 5 months of no sunshine. I’d be grumpy too. Man, some of you need more than a hug….you need a Holy Kiss! :)
Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
We are not going to solve all the problems of the fundamentalist (or evangelical) world in this arena. However, I think there are some practical issues that do come into play.
There seems to be no limit of interpretation of what is said, with people putting words in each other’s mouths. What can we “clearly” say?
1. There is undoubtedly much more fragmentation of both evangelicals and fundamentalists. Both movements are much less uniform than in times past.
2. The “status quo” in both movements have become much more polarized: Evangelicals to the left, and fundamentalists to the right. There are things in these polarizations that are blatantly unsound.
3. Clearly, there is much more of a middle of disaffected people in both movements, and rightly so.
There are both positives and negatives to the present situation. On the positive side, maybe once and for all we can get out of the “people following” business. While we need strong leadership, it is also true that we need to become people of our own convictions and not fall into personality cults. However, on the negative side, it is helpful to attach to some sort of movement in order to have some support institutions and identification. It is often personally difficult to change directions.
Can one find a position that is at once doctrinally pure, honest and faithful in practice, and yet strong enough to build momentum? I have a lot of concerns about this.
What factors are working against this? One is the seemingly intractable polarization that we see going on. Another is the well-chronicled tendency of drift among institutions, particularly colleges and seminaries. They don’t stay where they were put. As a result, there is continuing re-invention going on.
Where are things headed? The best answer is this: How are we tending our part of the picture? Where are the things we are given stewardship of headed?
Discussion