Regeneration Precedes Faith

…we got that settled in only 1 minute and 3 seconds. If I had known it took only that little bit of time I would have saved some money on a few credit hours studying the ordo salutis.

I didn’t catch even one Bible verse or Calvin quote. Maybe because taught by neither.

Steve, am I mistaken about your being Presbyterian? This is standard Presbyterian doctrine. Indeed, it is standard reformed doctrine. It is the dividing line between Calvinism and Arminianism. And yes, it is taught in the Bible in a number of passages. However, past experience has demonstrated that those who do not believe this will not be convinced by scripture, so there may not be much profit in listing some of the pertinent texts.

But, I’m willing to try. Let’s take a look at I Corinthins 2:14. Natural men (unregenerate) cannot understand the truth of God. Spiritual men (regenerated) do. So how does ANYONE understand? They must be constituted spiritual (regenerated) first before they are able to understand. Regeneration precedes faith.

Is Paul addressing the order of salvation in 1 Cor 2? Or is he contrasting godly wisdom with worldly wisdom?

Is 1 Corinthians 2:14 a strong verse for the order of events in salvation? Is it even a verse touching on the teaching of regeneration?

I always thought Paul was teaching the church that his teaching is not according to worldly wisdom and is giving a reason why the lost will not receive it. Am I mistaken on Paul’s message of 1 Cor 2? In reading the passage, it seems as if he is simply explaining why the world at large has rejected the Gospel and what God has given to those of us the world considered fools.

Is 1 Corinthians 2 teaching on how anyone came to be believer? Does it touch on the order of salvation for believers?

I think I am willing to be taught by Scripture, but I fear this is not where, if anywhere, Scripture is teaching on the order of salvation. Am I mistaken?

Yes and no. This passage does teach why the world rejects the gospel. And the reason is because the natural man (unregenerate person) does not, will not, and cannot understand spiritual truth. The only ones who understand it are spiritual men (regenerate people). So once again, how does ANYONE believe? Only those who are changed by the Spirit of God from natural to spiritual men are able to understand, and therefore believe.

The truth is hiding from you in plain view.

[G. N. Barkman]

Steve, am I mistaken about your being Presbyterian? This is standard Presbyterian doctrine. Indeed, it is standard reformed doctrine. It is the dividing line between Calvinism and Arminianism. And yes, it is taught in the Bible in a number of passages. However, past experience has demonstrated that those who do not believe this will not be convinced by scripture, so there may not be much profit in listing some of the pertinent texts.

But, I’m willing to try. Let’s take a look at I Corinthins 2:14. Natural men (unregenerate) cannot understand the truth of God. Spiritual men (regenerated) do. So how does ANYONE understand? They must be constituted spiritual (regenerated) first before they are able to understand. Regeneration precedes faith.

Brother Barkman,

Funny. I don’t ever recall being mistaken for a Presbyterian. My background is firmly Independent Baptist and although no longer IFB I remain baptistic. But I do have a masters degree from RTS, studied under Sinclair Ferguson et al. Also, I did say “maybe.” I’ve never been convinced of the formulation that regeneration precedes faith but I;m open. As I said, I understand the logic of it, dead people can’t believe, etc.

I do not consider that it constitutes the “essence of reformed theology.” I’m not a Calvin expert but in my French copy of his Institutes, Book 3, chapter 3, he has a heading, “Que nous sommes régénérés par la foi (That we are regenerated by faith). Maybe I’m missing something in the context but it seems to me that at least young Calvin did not hold that regeneration preceded faith. Of course there is something that takes place for someone to believe since faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, no one seeks God on their own, God always takes the initiative, the necessity of the work of the Spirit of God, etc. It seems to me that Scripture equates regeneration with salvation (Titus 3:5). Could we say a person is saved (regenerated) in order to believe? I’m sure proof texts can be lined up on both sides of the issue. But as formulated by Sproul (for whom I have great respect and don’t want to speak ill of the departed) it appears to reverse “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.” Of course, no one believes apart from the work of the Word and the work of the Spirit which grants life and forgiveness. I would not call that work regeneration. Is a person regenerated in order to place faith in Christ or regenerated at the moment when Spirit given faith is exercised. I lean toward the latter, In the end, it remains an epistemological issue. People can say they believe that regeneration precedes faith. I’m not convinced that they can know that or that it is even a concern of the authors of Scripture. I don’t place everything I don’t understand in the “mystery” bag but in this case I remain agnostic on the question. I am content to preach the gospel freely and trust God to do what only he can do.

So I might not have pure reformed credentials and might have to remain reformish. I do find your comment interesting on people not convinced by Scripture. It really cuts both ways.

BTW, I hesitated to comment since these threads rarely go anywhere. However, I find the question more interesting than discussions of BJU and bluegrass.

Have a great day in the Lord’s house tomorrow. I don’t know if I’ll get a chance to respond. I leave for Cameroon tomorrow evening to teach pastors in two cities.

Blessings,

Steve

Yes, that’s the logic of it. It’s also what Scripture teaches.

[G. N. Barkman]

Yes, that’s the logic of it. It’s also what Scripture teaches.

It’s what you believe scripture teaches. There are others who disagree.

Can a person feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit without being regenerated first?

Can all agree on this?

• Philippians 1:29, “For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake”
• Acts 11:18, “When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, ‘Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
• Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

God grants repentance and faith!

[TylerR]

My soteriology is Reformed. I agree with Sproul, here. I knew this thread would eventually generate some response! Heh, heh …

There are all these pesky verses that seem to indicate that belief leads to salvation: John 20:31 “But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” If only he had reversed that like Sproul did, it would be so much clearer: “But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by having life you might believe in his name.” Many Reformed theologians admit that regeneration before faith is the logical order but not the temporal order and that they regeneration and faith occur simultaneously. I think it’s a serious mistake to make this the essence of Reformed teaching. I always thought it was justification by faith alone

BTW, I hesitated to comment since these threads rarely go anywhere. However, I find the question more interesting than discussions of BJU and bluegrass.

You mean we still haven’t solved that issue yet? Good thing I just made more popcorn…

Steve, I doubt that this is the defining doctrine that divides Calvinists and Arminians. I am under the impression that Arminians generally assert belief in justification by faith alone . But the order solutis is a clear dividing line.

We are justified by faith, but we are not regenerated by faith. We are regenerated so that we can exercise the faith that justifies.