Southern Baptist leader encouraged a woman not to report alleged rape to police and told her to forgive assailant, she says
- 1 view
Seems to me that New Tribes, ABWE, BJU, MSU, and a whole bunch of other groups were indeed shamed into doing at least some of the right thing. Now it is correct that there is, regrettably, a stubbornness among fundamentalists and evangelicals to keep doing the right thing, or to carry it to a reasonable conclusion, but there is a TON of evidence out there that outsiders have done “insiders” a lot of good by raising the roof about their grievances. So my answers are:
1. Generally
2. Rarely, but that’s really the problem of the institutions being criticized not following Proverbs 15:12.
3. See #2. When you have mockers in authority, bad things happen.
4. OK, show me who else tried to hold BJU, ABWE, New Tribes, MSU, and others to account. What insider looked at John Strampel’s personnel file and raised the roof? What insider looked at ABWE’s dirty files and said “we have a problem”, and wouldn’t let go until something was done? What about BJU? Do you see a pattern here? You should.
Come on, Aaron, your reflexive hyper-autonomy arguments are getting really, really tiresome. The simple fact of the matter is the reason behind every ISO audit, every financial audit, every ombudsman, every independent auditor, and so on; outsiders see things that insiders do not. Organizations that ignore them almost always pay a heavy price.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
The victim is Paige Lively. No anonymous source anymore, and we will soon know whether a police report was filed. The requirements would exist in Texas state law and Title IX law. As far as I can tell, the former does not require a report, and if the latter does, a lot of schools have some ‘splainin’ to do. So again, I’m not quite sure what the BOT’s “complied with the law” actually means here.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
“that’s really the problem of the institutions being criticized not following Proverbs 15:12.”
Made this observation before, but none of the passages that direct us to accept wisdom from advisers say “wisdom from outside your organization,” much less “wisdom from people far away who don’t even have direct access to the relevant facts.”
“getting really, really tiresome ” … When you can’t refute, emote. But I suppose I do have that effect on people sometimes. Still, fatigue is not an argument.
“reflexive hyper-autonomy arguments” ….When you can’t refute, characterize.
”ISO audit, every financial audit, every ombudsman, every independent auditor” … these provide great services at times, which is why many organizations decide its in their best interest to use them. But, once again, these jobs are already taken (as far as the cases at hand are concerned). All us far away unconnected people really don’t have much, if anything, to contribute.
“Organizations that ignore them almost always pay a heavy price.” Just out of curiosity, I’d love to see the research that compares organizations that “ignored” vs. organizations that didn’t, controlling for other factors, to see if the ignorers “almost always pay…”
“Do you see a pattern here? You should.” Yes. People who were actually involved took things to proper channels. Good for them. I’m all for that. (Of course, a lot of people not involved took things to not proper channels as well… breeding quite a bit of confusion. I’m less enthusiastic about that, though I believe most of them meant well. I can always appreciate good intentions.)
“outsiders see things that insiders do not.” We do not disagree on this point.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Joeb]
A couple dead young and old Christian men would be a great deterrent if widely publicized on social media.
Frederick Douglass’ dictum on the boxes of liberty comes to mind here. Those denied recourse at the ballot box or the jury box sometimes take recourse to the cartridge box. I do not advocate it, but this is a relational reality that we ought to heed. If we keep things quiet and stiff arm complainants a la BJU, ABWE, SGM, New Tribes, SWBTS, and the like, eventually something like that will blow up after a quiet exodus from our churches as members show up as empty pews.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
Made this observation before, but none of the passages that direct us to accept wisdom from advisers say “wisdom from outside your organization,” much less “wisdom from people far away who don’t even have direct access to the relevant facts.”
Aaron, we have recordings, transcripts, and multiple eyewitness accounts of some of these things, including much of the Paige Patterson remarks. At what point does the threshold tip from unspeculated and ignorant rumor to verifiable fact? Isn’t the biblical standard two or three witnesses, in both the OT and the NT?
I kind of get the feeling you simply don’t want to cover these stories, which is fine, but then say that. This isn’t some random person making wild speculations about another random big name.
“getting really, really tiresome ” … When you can’t refute, emote. But I suppose I do have that effect on people sometimes. Still, fatigue is not an argument.
“reflexive hyper-autonomy arguments” ….When you can’t refute, characterize.
”ISO audit, every financial audit, every ombudsman, every independent auditor” … these provide great services at times, which is why many organizations decide its in their best interest to use them. But, once again, these jobs are already taken (as far as the cases at hand are concerned). All us far away unconnected people really don’t have much, if anything, to contribute.
There are some points to talking about this:
1. It counters the culture (as noted by Pastor Shiflett) of coverup and secrecy.
2. It demonstrates that we are serious about sin in our churches/movements.
3. It validates that what happens was wrong and provides comfort to the victim.
“Organizations that ignore them almost always pay a heavy price.” Just out of curiosity, I’d love to see the research that compares organizations that “ignored” vs. organizations that didn’t, controlling for other factors, to see if the ignorers “almost always pay…”
I think Bert already made this point, but there is wisdom in building out policies and procedures and following them. There is wisdom in getting input from outsiders - even unbelievers - when it comes to dealing with criminal matters. Lord knows there’s been more than enough screwups in how these things have been handled in the past to write out dozens of tomes on how to handle these kinds of problems.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
After the Michigan State and ABWE scandals, can we really say that there is any doubt whatsoever that refusing to take outsider allegations seriously harms organizations, Aaron? Let’s draw a picture; the 1994 allegations against Larry Nassar could have prevented over 300 young women from being abused if they’d been taken seriously. Had ABWE taken the 1960s era adultery allegations against Donn Ketcham seriously, many by summer interns considered “outsiders”, none of the children he abused would have been abused.
Honestly, it’s quite frankly stunning that you’re even asking the question.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
During the May 30, 2018, Executive Committee meeting of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (SWBTS) Board of Trustees, new information confirmed this morning was presented regarding the handling of an allegation of sexual abuse against a student during Dr. Paige Patterson’s presidency at another institution and resulting issues connected with statements to the Board of Trustees that are inconsistent with SWBTS’s biblically informed core values.
Deeming the information demanded immediate action and could not be deferred to a regular meeting of the Board, based on the details presented, the Executive Committee unanimously resolved to terminate Dr. Paige Patterson, effective immediately, removing all the benefits, rights and privileges provided by the May 22-23 board meeting, including the title of President Emeritus, the invitation to reside at the Baptist Heritage Center as theologian-in-residence and ongoing compensation.
Not sure what the tidbit is about ‘another institution’, but it sounds like the stories finally caught up to the SWBTS Board.
The BPNews story is here: http://bpnews.net/50984/swbts-paige-patterson-terminated-effective-imme…
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Maybe “the stories finally caught up.”
But maybe they simply did their jobs, carefully sought out what facts they could verify amid the din of all the far away and uninvolved experts, and then tried to make the best decision they could.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Aaron Blumer]Maybe “the stories finally caught up.”
But maybe they simply did their jobs, carefully sought out what facts they could verify amid the din of all the far away and uninvolved experts, and then tried to make the best decision they could.
Oh, yes, Aaron, this had absolutely nothing to do with Megan Lively and others speaking up. Nothing whatsoever. Certainly, just like at ABWE, just like at MSU, just like at BJU, and just like at USC, some insider really started looking at the data without any outsider influence. Ignore the fact that all of this started when those outsiders started raising H*** in the media.
/sarcasm off
Sorry, but this one is 100% the result of outsiders—those people you derisively call “far away and uninvolved experts”—looking at things and saying “what (expletives) is going on with that?”, and then turning around and caring enough about the organization to speak up. You call it “obsessing”, I call it “caring enough about a rape victim to say that the person who prevented that rape from being prosecuted ought no longer be employed at SWBTS.”
Thank GOD Megan Lively spoke up, and thank GOD others looked at his previous comments bragging about a woman’s shiners and leering at a teenage girl and said the things that could not be said in the organization; that is wrong.
You have made a POWERFUL case against your point of view about local church autonomy with your rhetoric in this regard. As I see things, God calls elders to have a good reputation outside the church, and that means that the church can not afford to call outsiders “far away and uninvolved” or “obsessing.” God calls the church to heed advice and not hide behind pretended hyper-autonomy of the local church.
I’m going to go a little bit further here as well; by speaking around the issue, the board of SWBTS really does wrong. What they needed to say is what the evidence actually said; that Paige Patterson not only bragged about leering at a teenage girl in a sermon, he not only bragged about a domestic violence victim’s injuries in a sermon, but finally he was caught lying about the record of a student and prevented allegations of rape from reaching the police in time to prosecute. If you want the rot to go, you have to be specific about exactly what that rot is, and why it is unacceptable.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
But maybe they simply did their jobs, carefully sought out what facts they could verify amid the din of all the far away and uninvolved experts, and then tried to make the best decision they could.
No, the press release specifically mentions ‘new information’ that was ‘confirmed’.
During the May 30, 2018, Executive Committee meeting of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (SWBTS) Board of Trustees, new information confirmed this morning
My first guess is that they were referring to the Washington Post article from last week that alleged the cover up of a reported rape at SWBTS, but that was discussed at last week’s Board meeting; Patterson’s attorney spent some time briefing the Trustees on that matter. So I guess this is something else but honestly don’t want to know at this point. There’s enough death in that pot, so to speak.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
It struck me today that one big reason things don’t get reported is because a lot of us simply don’t understand that someone would actually do that sort of thing. It can be a powerful disincentive to report. So bringing these issues forward and letting people get angry about it serves the valuable purpose of not only getting action in the immediate problem, but also conditions people to be ready to deal with the next problem.
Two Biblical examples of this principle include Paul’s rebuke in 1 Corinthians of the church abetting the “lover of his stepmother” as it being a perversion not even known among the pagans, and also the furor over the rape of the Levite’s concubine in Benjamin in the Old Testament. We are supposed to hear about this sort of thing from time to time, and it is indeed a GOOD thing when we “go to our tents”, as Israel was commanded.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
These are two examples of what actually should happen:
- People directly connected to the problem take action
- They appeal directly to the most able authority available.
In the book of Judges example, the historian goes out of his way to observe, at poignant moments that there was no law and order to speak of, and “every man did that which was right in his own eyes.”
So the Levite (who is, himself, far from innocent in the matter) — brings the matter to the attention of the tribes because there is no other legitimate authority to handle it.
In neither of these cases do people appeal to the general public — even through the equivalent of news professionals, much less randomly to everybody who will listen (as in social media, and Internet in general).
There are zero biblical passages that teach the idea that people with no authority, responsibility, or connection to a problem are entitled to know about it or should be appealed to resolve it.
None.
There are also no passages attaching value to furor in general.
As for the board… Bert, you have been frequently misrepresenting the views of people you are disagreeing with.
It would be wise to stop.
I never said people coming forward had nothing to do with the board’s action. I pretty much said the opposite. Do I think getting the press involved helped the board get serious? I have no way of knowing one way or the other.
Unlike some, I do not pass judgment on people’s motives without some factual basis (or responsibility) to do so.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Aaron, you just made an accusation of me with zero evidence presented. Makes your statements something of a mockery, don’t you think?
Unlike some, I do not pass judgment on people’s motives without some factual basis (or responsibility) to do so.
Hint; you just did exactly that.
Regarding your claims, you might do well to define connection. As I see things, close to 15 million Southern Baptists and probably an equal number of other evangelicals and fundamentalists do indeed have a connection to SBC seminaries. Moreover, all Bible believing Christians have an interest in seeing that the name of God is not slandered because seminary presidents leer at teenage girls, brag about domestic abuse, and hide rape accusations.
It’s really the same notion that Paul was indulging when he told the Corinthian church to punish the offender, the same notion that Paul was indulging when he told the Corinthian church to re-accept the repentant offender, and the same notion that John had when he promised to rebuke Diotrephes. If this counts as “no evidence” in your world, I’m afraid I cannot help you.
And going further, all neighbors of Bible believing Christians, especially those with daughters, have a huge interest in their Christian neighbors not thinking it’s OK for a 70 year old man to leer at a teen girl, suppress rape allegations, or applaud the results of domestic violence.
And if you think that public outcry, including two petitions for SBC men and women to register their displeasure with Patterson’s behavior, had nothing to do with the SWBTS BOT’s decision, I’ve got a bridge I’d be willing to sell to you cheap.
Really, Aaron, I don’t know what your problem is, but what I’m seeing from you is a very consistent maligning of outsiders and a very consistent, and unfounded, assumption that the insiders have things under control. Neither is consistent with evidence or good ethics. Proverbs tells us to take advice, and 1 Tim. 3:7 tells us that an elder must have a good reputation among those outside. I simply cannot reconcile what you are saying to these passages, nor to the New Testament example of very bounded autonomy of local church bodies.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
In the book of Judges example, the historian goes out of his way to observe, at poignant moments that there was no law and order to speak of, and “every man did that which was right in his own eyes.”
So the Levite (who is, himself, far from innocent in the matter) — brings the matter to the attention of the tribes because there is no other legitimate authority to handle it.
In neither of these cases do people appeal to the general public — even through the equivalent of news professionals, much less randomly to everybody who will listen (as in social media, and Internet in general).
Aaron, if you’re talking about the Levite in Judges 19-20, I think you need to reconsider what you said. Here’s the text:
And her master rose up in the morning, and when he opened the doors of the house and went out to go on his way, behold, there was his concubine lying at the door of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, “Get up, let us be going.” But there was no answer. Then he put her on the donkey, and the man rose up and went away to his home. And when he entered his house, he took a knife, and taking hold of his concubine he divided her, limb by limb, into twelve pieces, and sent her throughout all the territory of Israel. And all who saw it said, “Such a thing has never happened or been seen from the day that the people of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt until this day; consider it, take counsel, and speak.”
Then all the people of Israel came out, from Dan to Beersheba, including the land of Gilead, and the congregation assembled as one man to the LORD at Mizpah. And the chiefs of all the people, of all the tribes of Israel, presented themselves in the assembly of the people of God, 400,000 men on foot that drew the sword. (Now the people of Benjamin heard that the people of Israel had gone up to Mizpah.) And the people of Israel said, “Tell us, how did this evil happen?” And the Levite, the husband of the woman who was murdered, answered and said, “I came to Gibeah that belongs to Benjamin, I and my concubine, to spend the night. And the leaders of Gibeah rose against me and surrounded the house against me by night. They meant to kill me, and they violated my concubine, and she is dead. So I took hold of my concubine and cut her in pieces and sent her throughout all the country of the inheritance of Israel, for they have committed abomination and outrage in Israel. Behold, you people of Israel, all of you, give your advice and counsel here.”
And all the people arose as one man, saying, “None of us will go to his tent, and none of us will return to his house. But now this is what we will do to Gibeah: we will go up against it by lot, and we will take ten men of a hundred throughout all the tribes of Israel, and a hundred of a thousand, and a thousand of ten thousand, to bring provisions for the people, that when they come they may repay Gibeah of Benjamin for all the outrage that they have committed in Israel.” So all the men of Israel gathered against the city, united as one man.
And the tribes of Israel sent men through all the tribe of Benjamin, saying, “What evil is this that has taken place among you? Now therefore give up the men, the worthless fellows in Gibeah, that we may put them to death and purge evil from Israel.” But the Benjaminites would not listen to the voice of their brothers, the people of Israel.
John MacArthur has this in his Study Bible:
As a result of this horrible tragedy, a national assembly was convened with people coming from the North (Dan) and the South (Beersheba). as one man to the Lord. This indicated a humble attitude and desire to seek help from God for the nation.
Likewise, the ESV Study Bible:
Gibeah, site of the moral outrage (ch. 19), was a Benjamite city, and so an assembly of all Israel convened at Mizpah to unite against Benjamin (20:1-11).
Finally:
There are zero biblical passages that teach the idea that people with no authority, responsibility, or connection to a problem are entitled to know about it or should be appealed to resolve it. None.
So what were people from Dan and Beersheba doing at the assembly? If they weren’t going to war, they were helping support the troops who did at a bare minimum. And furthermore, the Lord specifically sanctioned this in Judges 20:18, 23, and 27-28. Verse 36 explicitly states that the Lord was the one who defeated Benjamin that day.
I could go on, but I’ll stop here. The problems in Judges metasized until it became a national concern. That’s what is going on here today.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Discussion