Reflections after the Encounter: Considering the Current Situation of Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism

NickImage

or
Why I Am Still a Fundamentalist
(And How I Am Not)

Perhaps it would be best to begin this document with a warning. This is going to be a long discussion. If you only read part of it, or if you only focus on a statement here or there, you are going to come away with a distorted impression. Consequently, I ask that you either read it carefully or not at all.

This past week, I participated in a conference on “Advancing the Church,” hosted by Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary in Lansdale, Pennsylvania. Over the years I have spoken many times at the National Leadership Conference held by the same institution. The difference this time was the involvement of Dr. Mark Dever, pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C. Capitol Hill is Southern Baptist and Pastor Dever is one of the most prominent voices within conservative evangelicalism.

Also participating in the conference were Dr. David Doran (pastor of Inter City Baptist Church in Allen Park, Michigan, and president of Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary), Dr. Tim Jordan (pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Lansdale, Pennsylvania), and Dr. Sam Harbin (president of the host seminary). Several other fundamentalist leaders were present and participated in some of the closed-door conversations that took place with Pastor Dever.

One of the purposes of the meeting was to explore differences and similarities both between independent Baptists and Southern Baptists, and between fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. Part of that conversation took place publicly on the platform of the meeting. More of the conversation took place in private meetings. As might have been expected, much of the conversation was about biblical separation.

Whether in public or in private, the conversation developed in ways that I had not expected. These developments were made possible partly by the candor and transparency of Pastor Dever. He is a generous conversationalist. He seeks to understand his interlocutors and to grasp their arguments before responding. When he responds he does so graciously and cogently. In these respects, participation in the discussion was a pleasure.

Now that the meeting is over, I wish to reflect upon the larger orbit of concerns that affect fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. In doing so, I am not attempting to set an agenda for anyone else. I have my own responses to the matters that have come to the surface. Others may have different responses. The one thing that seems rather clear is that we shall all have to respond.

What the Meeting Was Not About

Some rather amusing speculations have been voiced as to why “Advancing the Church” was held in the first place. One is that the speakers were hoping to make a favorable impression so that they could move out of fundamentalism and into evangelicalism. Another was that the speakers were somehow aiming to capture one or more of the institutions of fundamentalism. A third was that they were simply plotting the overthrow of fundamentalism.

The ironic element in all these speculations is that they represent goals that the speakers have already rejected. Consider, for example, the accusation that people like Doran, Jordan, Harbin and I are looking for a way into conservative evangelicalism. What this accusation overlooks is the fact that the way into evangelicalism has been open to us for years—indeed, for decades.

Each of us holds at least one doctorate from an evangelical institution. Jordan and Harbin have degrees from Westminster Theological Seminary. Doran and I have degrees from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. I also have a degree from Dallas Theological Seminary. We all have a pretty good grasp of the evangelical landscape. We each have known prominent evangelical leaders for years.

Over the past twenty-five years, I have developed relationships with many evangelical leaders. In the course of these relationships, I have been offered many opportunities to pull up stakes from fundamentalism and to make my way in the larger evangelical world. I am pretty sure that people like Doran, Jordan, and Harbin have been offered the same opportunities.

We chose—all of us—not to forsake fundamentalism. We made our choice with full awareness of how small the world of fundamentalism really is (I’ll never forget having to explain to one evangelical professor what Bob Jones University was—the name did not even show up as a blip on his radar screen). From a certain point of view, we doomed ourselves to obscurity. And we did it willingly, even enthusiastically.

Why? The reason is very simple. Whatever its faults, fundamentalism still retains and defends an idea that is fully instanced nowhere else. As somebody once said, “Fundamentalism is a great idea. It may have been the last great idea.” And it is an idea of which we are fully persuaded. The idea of fundamentalism is not only true, it is important. We have all taken a good look at the evangelical world, and we can find nowhere else that this idea is even fully understood, let alone implemented. We chose to stay in fundamentalism because we are fundamentalists, in what I hope is the best and most responsible sense of that term.

Since we have been willing to spend our lives in fundamentalism, it hardly seems likely that we would be plotting its overthrow. If we disdained fundamentalism, then we would find it far easier simply to leave (perhaps banging the door and throwing a few rocks) and to ignore fundamentalists forevermore. Far from wishing that fundamentalism would die, however, we want it to grow stronger.

In my opinion, I do not have to do anything to destroy fundamentalism. It presently appears to be far down the road toward self-immolation. The symptoms have been growing worse for years. If I really wanted fundamentalism to die, the thing that I would do is simply to step out of the way. The reason I stay, and the reason that I address the problems, is precisely because I would like to see fundamentalism brought to health (not that I am likely to have much actual influence). And, while I do not pretend to speak for them, I think that other fundamentalist participants in “Advancing the Church” feel about the same way.

What about the accusations of an attempted coup? Is it true that the speakers from “Advancing the Church” want to take over fundamentalism? After all, that would be one way of controlling the movement, would it not?

The short answer is that all of us have been offered positions of power that we have refused. Several years ago John Vaughn came to me with a request that I join the board of the Fundamental Baptist Fellowship, International. He later renewed this request. I responded that it did not seem right for me to join the board of an organization of which I was not even a member. I also explained that the extreme stands the FBFI and associated organizations had taken during the 1970s and 1980s led me to have real reservations about that organization.

Dr. Vaughn was kind enough to assure me that the direction of the FBFI had changed since then. He specifically repudiated the past antics of the FBF board and assured me (for example) that the resolutions from those years were retained on the website only as a matter of historical interest. He stressed that the success of the new direction of the FBFI required the involvement of young leaders like me. This conversation was repeated on at least two occasions.

To be sure, Dr. Vaughn was very persuasive. Truthfully, I was encouraged by signs of change that I saw in the FBFI, specifically its apparent rejection of King-James-Onlyism, its openness to having Calvinists and non-Calvinists get along peacefully within its ranks, and a new emphasis on expository preaching (some of the best expositors I know have been aligned with the FBFI). I did not agree to serve on the board, but because of Dr. Vaughn’s commitments I did join the organization. Incidentally, that is why I felt that I could not ignore the attack upon some of these very changes when (about two years ago) that attack came from an FBF platform.

The bottom line is this. I do not desire institutional power. True, I have accepted the presidency of a seminary, but that is only because it was a job that needed to be done. Fundamentalism has no use for political enforcers in positions of leadership. We had lots of that in the 1970s and 1980s. The healthiest versions of fundamentalism are the ones that have outgrown their dependence upon strong-arm politicians—or, who never had them in the first place. At any rate, we do not need more strong-arm leadership. We need less.

Then what do I want? To put it simply, I wish to exercise a different sort of leadership. It focuses upon two things. First, I want to explore and articulate ideas. Second, I want to tell the truth. Because I am committed to that kind of leadership, I applaud those who are willing to challenge specious thinking. I applaud those who are willing to expose falsehoods, half-truths, and innuendos. I applaud those who are willing to peel back the rug so that we all see what was swept under it.

Some people see these activities as an attack upon fundamentalism itself. In my opinion, however, if fundamentalism can be destroyed by clear thinking and by telling the truth, then it does not deserve to survive. The failure to think clearly and to deal with our own weaknesses has led to much disillusionment. I do not believe that the answer is to prop up the illusions. The only way of guarding against being disillusioned is never to entertain illusions in the first place. So by all means, let us tell the truth.

Why I Went

Each of us made a choice about participating in “Advancing the Church.” The different speakers may have been motivated by a variety of concerns. I chose to participate because I believe that fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals must engage in serious, public conversation about the issues that divide us. I thought that the conversation at Lansdale would be useful in several ways. First, I hoped to have an opportunity to defend the distinctive ideas of fundamentalism. Second, I wanted to explore a couple of areas that I thought were weaknesses in the conservative evangelical approach. Third, I thought that it was important for fundamentalists to be seen submitting their position to first-hand, public inspection, while also subjecting an alternative position to first-hand, public inspection.

A few years ago, I was invited to participate in a different conference that wanted to promote a conversation with conservative evangelicals: the “Standpoint Conference.” The organizers of the Standpoint Conference wanted to place several fundamentalist and conservative evangelical leaders on the platform together for (among other things) a full discussion of their differences and similarities. I was asked to join Dr. Daniel Davey as one of the representatives of fundamentalism.

At that time, I weighed seriously the desirability of being involved in such a conversation. I also sought counsel from several fundamentalist leaders. While some encouraged my involvement (in fact, the Central Seminary board urged me to go), others expressed reservations. They agreed that the conversation itself was desirable, but they were unsure of the goals or purpose of the Standpoint Conference. Its planners, they said, appeared to be committed to an “emerging middle,” which they took to mean some sort of merger between fundamentalism and conservative evangelicalism.

A couple of my counselors (both prominent in the FBFI) said that their concern was not so much about appearing on a platform with conservative evangelicals as it was about the agenda of the Standpoint Conference itself. They suggested that my appearance in the Standpoint Conference would in some way endorse the agenda of a merger between fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. I asked whether this objection would still apply if a similar conversation were held in a more committed fundamentalist environment. They replied that the difference in venue would be critical.

These were men whom I respect, and their counsel seemed correct to me. Consequently, I declined to participate in the Standpoint Conference, not because I objected to a conversation with conservative evangelicals, but because I did not want to appear to endorse the notion of a wholesale merger between the two groups. When I was invited to “Advancing the Church,” however, it seemed to meet these concerns perfectly. “Advancing the Church” was being sponsored by an organization whose fundamentalist credentials were impeccable. Indeed, in its National Leadership Conference, Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary had made one of the most important contributions to the health of fundamentalism for the decade of the 2000s.

So why did I go? Positively, because I thought that the conversation was necessary for both fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. Negatively, because I did not think that persons of charity and good faith would misunderstand or mistake the purpose of the conversation. I am still convinced of that.

Conversation about Polity

The conference on “Advancing the Church” had two sides, both of which revolved around Dr. Dever. On the one hand, Dever has built his reputation upon his understanding and implementation of Baptist polity. His public addresses were assembled around that theme. On the other hand, Dever is a source of controversy among fundamentalists because of his connection with conservative evangelicalism and the Southern Baptist Convention. Those connections prompted much public and private discussion.

Pastor Dever’s grasp of New Testament polity is both biblically grounded and historically informed. He is not inventing ideas, but resurrecting old ones. In this respect he performed a valuable service to a generation of Baptist fundamentalists, some of whom had never heard a full-orbed discussion of matters relating to church membership and government.

What struck me most about Dever’s discussion was how close it came to the principles that I was taught in both college and seminary. These historic, Baptist distinctives are the same ones that I still teach to my students. Some of these emphases have been forgotten by certain independent Baptists. I found it refreshing to hear them articulated clearly.

The most controversial aspect of Dever’s polity involves the plurality of elders. On this point, his views are often confused with those of John MacArthur, but the two are markedly different. Dever made it clear that the terms pastor, bishop, and elder all refer to the same office. He specified that each pastor/elder was to be called by the congregation, not merely by the other elders. He also emphasized the point that pastors can be dismissed by the congregation—indeed, the whole business of receiving and dismissing members must be performed by the church, not by the elders. All of this should be Baptist boilerplate, but much of it has been forgotten in some circles of fundamentalism.

Pastor Dever believes that a plurality of elders is “normal” for a New Testament church. When asked, however, he conceded that a small church with a single pastor was not necessarily sinning. He does think that even small churches should work toward training and calling new pastors when qualified men became available. He also agreed that desire for the office was one of the qualifications for a bishop, so a small church might proceed with a single pastor if it had no other men who desired the office.

When asked about “lay elders,” Dever sought to distance himself from this expression. He emphasized that he preferred to talk about paid and unpaid elders, all of whom were equally pastors and bishops. In public conversation he conceded that he had not thought sufficiently about 1 Corinthians 9 as a text that might indicate the right of ministers to be supported financially.

Pastor Dever also acknowledged that he was, in a sense, the most authoritative pastor at Capitol Hill. In another sense, all of the elders have equal authority, for each gets only one vote. While he only gets one vote, however, everyone knows that both elders and members are likely to take what he says more seriously than what some other elder might say. He believes that it is appropriate for one pastor to exercise this kind of leadership, but he also believes that a pastor who carries this extra honor must restrain himself in its use.

Conversation about Separation

Discussions of biblical separation took place both in public and behind closed doors. In private meetings, Dr. Dever frequently returned to this subject. He admitted that he did not understand the fundamentalist position and took pains to explore it. Hours were spent in offering definitions, illustrations, and examples.

To say that the particulars were interesting would be an understatement. On the one hand, Dever evidenced considerable sympathy for separatist convictions. He appeared to be pleased to explain the conservative resurgence in the Southern Baptist Convention. He was particularly emphatic that the liberals had been removed from the institutions. (He later qualified this point, as I shall point out in a moment.)

Surprisingly, Dever shared some of the same complaints that many fundamentalists make about Southern Baptists and conservative evangelicals. He bluntly stated that he thought Billy Graham’s cooperative evangelism was wrong. He expressed disappointment with conservative evangelicals who had signed the Manhattan Declaration and considerable frustration with evangelicals who had lent their names to Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

Nevertheless, Pastor Dever is definitely a Southern Baptist. His perception of the convention, however, is not what an independent Baptist might assume. He sees the convention as a service organization, much in the same way that many fundamentalists would view Baptist World Mission or Bob Jones University. For him, to be a Southern Baptist is to be a consumer of the services that the convention provides.

Dever is willing to acknowledge the weaknesses of the Southern Baptist Convention. He admits that there is no way to keep a liberal messenger from voting in the convention (though he thinks it unlikely that any liberal would want to do this). He also acknowledges that, in very few cases, elderly liberal professors have been retained in the seminaries until they retire. Nevertheless, he insists that liberalism has been soundly defeated within the SBC, and that its return is highly unlikely. He sees a larger problem in trends like consumer Christianity and seeker-sensitive churches—and, he would point out, those trends are not the sole problem of Southern Baptists.

Capitol Hill shapes its public worship by the regulative principle. Pastor Dever made a strong case for including in worship only those elements that are authorized by the New Testament. Capitol Hill is far more scrupulous in this way than many fundamentalist churches. Also, the worship at Capitol Hill is much more traditional than that in many fundamentalist churches. The church does use some Sovereign Grace music, for example, but it also uses many older hymns (though few or none from the era of gospel songs).

Some of the liveliest conversation surrounded Capitol Hill’s membership in the District of Columbia Baptist Convention. In personal conversation, Dever admitted with evident repugnance that the DCBC was controlled by liberals. What he stressed, however, was Capitol Hill’s opposition to liberalism. “Liberals have no right to it. If we can’t put them out, the next best thing will be to make them throw us out.”

Pastor Dever was asked repeatedly about his participation in the cooperative program. He indicated that it was a great arrangement for Capitol Hill Baptist Church. Since Capitol Hill sends out many missionaries, it draws more from the cooperative program than it puts in. Dever said that he was more than willing to accept money from a variety of churches to plant strong ones.

At that point in the conversation, David Doran replied that it might be a good situation for a church like Capitol Hill, but a small church that had none of its own missionaries would end up giving more than it drew. Such a church would necessarily be supporting works with which neither it nor Dever really agreed.

My Sermon

Since I am usually the worst judge of my own preaching, I can only mention what I was trying to do. Others will have to evaluate whether or not I accomplished my purpose.

From the time that I accepted the invitation to “Advancing the Church,” my purpose was to make as strong of a case as I could for a mainstream fundamentalist understanding of biblical separation. I wanted to do this, not merely because I believe that separation (including separation from some believers) is correct, and not merely because it is characteristic of fundamentalism. I wanted to address this issue because I believe that it is essential to “Advancing the Church.” Without separation, healthy churches will soon begin to decay as the infection of error sets in.

While I was aware that some non-fundamentalists such as Dr. Dever would hear the presentation, my main concern was for the younger fundamentalists in the audience. These young men have usually seen separation—especially separation from believers—practiced and defended rather badly. To some of them, separation seems like mere irascibility. I believed that “Advancing the Church” would put me in a strong position to discuss this topic. It should have been clear from the outset that I was not arbitrarily classifying all non-fundamentalists as “disobedient brethren” who ought to be treated like apostates.

As I envisioned it, the presentation needed to be strongly based in the exposition of a text of Scripture, paying full due to the historical and grammatical context of that text. In the process of developing the text, I wanted to show its relevance to fundamentalist history and terminology. I wanted my listeners to come away with the impression that a separatist position (one that includes separation from brethren) was not only biblically defensible, but also biblically mandated.

For my text I chose 2 John 7-11. As a foil for the text, I introduced the example of Oliver W. Van Osdel and the Grand Rapids Baptist Association as it was being invaded by liberalism in 1909. I attempted to get my listeners to work through the problem of fellowship and separation for themselves, with the biblical text providing the resources for making the right decisions.

My desire was to strengthen Christian leaders in their understanding of and commitment to biblical separation. Of course, a certain number of non-fundamentalists were also present and they, too, heard the presentation. I hope that they found it persuasive. If anecdotal responses are any indication (and sometimes they are not), then at least some in the audience were helped by it. It should be available on the internet when the conference addresses are posted.

Why I Am Still a Fundamentalist

With respect to the issues under discussion, I both remain a fundamentalist and encourage others to adopt fundamentalism. I agree that fundamentalism is a great idea. It is a biblical idea. It is a necessary idea. It is an idea that addresses a complex of questions. I remain convinced that no other answer deals with those questions as well as fundamentalism.

As far as I am concerned, Mark Dever is a friend. I enjoy his self-depreciating attitude, his sense of humor, his willingness to challenge, and his careful treatment of ideas. As a Baptist theologian, he is articulating many old ideas that too many fundamentalists have forgotten.

Furthermore, I believe that it is appropriate to call Pastor Dever a separatist. He has been part of a great purging of Southern Baptist institutions. He rejects cooperative evangelism and believes that Billy Graham was wrong to practice it. He is critical even of his friends when they send out confusing signals (such as signing the Manhattan Declaration) on the gospel.

At the same time, I cannot see my way clear to throw in my lot with Pastor Dever and his crowd. While they have taken the first steps in basic separatism, I do not believe that they are prepared to go far enough. The decision to retain some older liberal professors in Southern Baptist seminaries is one example. The new administrations could have treated these men fairly without continuing to give them an opportunity to confuse future students.

The lack of a doctrinal test for participation in the Southern Baptist Convention is an even greater concern. While the convention points to the Baptist Faith and Message as a summary of its convictions, that statement is not binding. A church can fully identify with and send messengers to the convention while denying fundamentals of the gospel. In other words, the institutions have been mostly purged, but no mechanism exists for removing an apostate church or barring an apostate messenger from participating in the decision-making process. Pastor Dever is optimistic that, with the Baptist Faith and Message in place, liberal churches will simply leave the convention alone. I do not share that optimism.

Participation in the conservative evangelical movement forces one to work closely with people who hold charismatic views. True, the more moderate versions of charismatic theology do not directly affect the gospel. That does not mean, however, that they are minor or incidental. This issue was not much discussed at “Advancing the Church,” but I do not believe that close cooperation with charismatics is desirable under most circumstances.

To be clear, Dr. Dever is not on a campaign to attract young men away from fundamentalism. He will accept fundamentalists into his internship program, but his goal is not to talk them out of their heritage. With three fundamentalist seminary presidents in the room, Dever asked, “Are we [conservative evangelicals] a threat to your institutions?” I replied with a question: “Why should anybody go to Central Seminary and read Bruce Ware when he can go to Southern and hear Bruce Ware teach?” Without blinking, Dever shot back, “Smaller classes. Better student-teacher ratios. More personal attention.”

My conclusion? On the one hand, I applaud all that Pastor Dever and his friends have accomplished for the sake of the gospel. On the other hand, the differences that remain are of sufficient gravity to create an ongoing limitation in our ability to work together at many levels. While careful and limited cooperation is possible in narrow ways, an “emerging middle” between fundamentalism and conservative evangelicalism is not a desirable phenomenon. As Dever himself noted, there is nothing wrong with fences, though we ought to keep our fences low and to shake hands often. I think that we can do that without attempting to straddle the fence.

How I Am Not a Fundamentalist

One point of disagreement was highlighted when Dr. Dever turned to me and asked, “So, is rap music sinful?” While I was taken aback by the question, my answer was, “Yes.” Naturally, that answer led to a longer discussion that I hope will turn into a longer one still.

In affirming the sinfulness of rap music, I am not disagreeing with Dr. Dever alone. Virtually all conservative evangelicals and a growing number of self-identified fundamentalists are on his side. Furthermore, if the question is expanded to include other idioms in pop music, even more fundamentalists will end up on Dr. Dever’s side.

I am most concerned with the question of what music may be offered in worship. Most fundamentalists fall into one of two camps. One camp has concluded that issues of music and culture are secondary, unimportant, or unaddressed by Scripture. This camp has reached a position in which virtually any popular expression can be modified to become useful in addressing God.

The other camp believes that these issues are addressed and are important, but is willing to critique only the most recent trends. This camp will rail against the worldliness of rap or rock (or Sovereign Grace or Getty), but it will have nothing to say about the accommodations that it has made to popular music for more than a century.

I have come to believe that issues of imagination, affection, and culture are extremely important, even crucial. I think that these issues are amply addressed by biblical principle. Furthermore, I also believe that a proper critique will lead to the rejection of some dearly-held fundamentalist habits.

When I make this case, however, I have to recognize that I am no longer speaking as a fundamentalist. My position goes beyond anything that most fundamentalists are willing to embrace. To be sure, I do not deny that they are good fundamentalists according to the idea of fundamentalism. Rather, I judge fundamentalism as an historical phenomenon to be deficient in this area.

From the beginning, fundamentalism has been a rather populist movement that has tended to absorb the surrounding commercial culture. The result is that fundamentalism has rarely critiqued its own forms and methods. Because fundamentalists have aggressively attacked trends that they don’t like, however, they have created the appearance of a double standard. Impatience with that double standard has led the current generation of young fundamentalists into a massive shift toward contemporary forms and expressions.

I have written elsewhere about the importance of conservative Christianity. Conservative Christianity is more conservative than fundamentalism, and far more conservative than most of “conservative” evangelicalism. I do not believe that either conservative evangelicalism or fundamentalism has within itself the resources to foster a genuinely conservative Christianity. On the one hand, I must object when Pastor Dever defends the legitimacy of Christian Rap. On the other hand, I also have to object when my fundamentalist friends believe that the life of faith and the pursuit of Christian virtues is somehow analogous to the swashbuckling adventures of a predatory buccaneer.

Nor is the problem simply about music. In a sense, the problem concerns the totality of ways in which we think and speak about God and the world. Years ago I tried to articulate some of my vision in a document entitled “A Fundamentalism Worth Saving.” Subsequently, I have expanded it in documents on Christian conservatism and on the moral imagination. In those documents, I have attempted to sketch what I thought a truly healthy fundamentalism would look like. Today, years later, I find very few places in which fundamentalists are actually interested in implementing the kind of ideas that I have described.

That leaves me in a very uncomfortable position. To the extent that fundamentalism is committed to populism, revivalism, obscurantism, and shallowness, I have little appetite for it. In fact, viewed from this perspective, I do not see myself as a fundamentalist at all. I am simply a conservative (or, if you like, a conservative Christian), and most of fundamentalism as it exists today is a threat to conservative ideals.

On the other hand, viewed from the perspective of the questions that distinguish fundamentalism from other forms of evangelicalism (including, to some degree, the phenomenon that is called “conservative evangelicalism”), I think that fundamentalists are generally and importantly right. If someone is choosing between fundamentalism and conservative evangelicalism, then fundamentalism is the right choice. And if one is looking for a movement that offers structures through which to advance ideas, it may be the only choice.

Those who wish to live as true conservatives, however, are not likely to be welcomed by most fundamentalists, nor will they feel as if they belong. They will hold the idea of fundamentalism, for that idea is actually integral to the idea of conservative Christianity. They will also find that they must separate from much or most of the fundamentalist movement in order to retain the integrity of their conservatism. If they do not, fundamentalists will likely separate from them.

On the one side of fundamentalism is conservative evangelicalism. On the other side is actual conservative Christianity. I consider it progress when someone in the conservative evangelical camp grasps and affirms ideas from fundamentalism. I do not, however, consider it a triumph. Conservative evangelicalism is on the far side of fundamentalism from me. As I see it, both movements need to move in a more genuinely conservative direction.

Prayer for the Church
The Book of Common Prayer

O God of unchangeable power and eternal light: Look favorably on your whole Church, that wonderful and sacred mystery; by the effectual working of your providence, carry out in tranquility the plan of salvation; let the whole world see and know that things which were cast down are being raised up, and things which had grown old are being made new, and that all things are being brought to their perfection by him through whom all things were made, your Son Jesus Christ our Lord; who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

Discussion

[Aaron Blumer]
[Steve Davis]
[Aaron Blumer]
[Steve Davis] Thanks to you and Jay C. for responding to Scott’s comment. All forms are cultural forms. I’m so glad that God accepts worship in forms that others would not choose
It’s true that all forms are cultural forms. But this in now way solves the problem… unless we suppose that all cultures are equally good or that all forms within a culture are equally good.
It solves the problem of supposing that someone has found the cultural forms more pleasing to God and aesthetic forms necessary to protect the integrity of the gospel. It also makes the charge that rap music is sinful silly and biblically indefensible.
I’m not seeing how it does any of those things. Perhaps you can explain why it would?

It doesn’t follow that if all forms are cultural, all forms are OK.

(As for cultural imperialism… I mean this sincerely—who is it that has told us this is a bad thing? Why should we believe them? I’m inclined to think that some cultures ought to replace others because, as I’ve already mentioned, I do not believe for a minute that all cultures are equally healthy—or equally anything, really, except equally human. Granted, it’s difficult to evaluate a culture because you’re always deeply embedded in one. But saying it’s challenging isn’t the same as saying it ought not to be done. We need to bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.)
No one’s saying that all forms are okay, or at least I’m not. All forms are human creations, perhaps some reflecting more of God’s image but all affected more or less by sin with redeemable elements that can be put at the service of God and the gospel – rap music in this instance. My argument is against the pretense that one has discovered the forms more or most pleasing to God aesthetically, in this case sounding very western, white, middle-class American, and from that make blanket statements that go beyond Scripture about what is sinful.

The only culture that should replace others is a kingdom culture as it comes alongside other cultures and progressively uproots and replaces elements that need to be denounced and rejected or restored and reshaped. It’s in this sense that I hold to a form of cultural relativism (not to be confused with ethical and moral relativism) and oppose cultural imperialism.

You can’t love your brethren in Christ’s Church by separating from them. Separation, as Bauder points out in his conference message, must be done with apostates. He is correct. Such are not the brethren.

But why justify separating from true brethren?
[Kevin T. Bauder] As I envisioned it, the presentation needed to be strongly based in the exposition of a text of Scripture, paying full due to the historical and grammatical context of that text. In the process of developing the text, I wanted to show its relevance to fundamentalist history and terminology. I wanted my listeners to come away with the impression that a separatist position (one that includes separation from brethren) was not only biblically defensible, but also biblically mandated.

For my text I chose 2 John 7-11.
Neither the text, nor Kevin’s message, say anything even remotely close to the claim that we Christians should separate from other truly saved believers. John does claim that a truly saved believer will lose reward for associating with apostates. But that is a long from losing reward for associating with Christians, even misguided ones.

So then there is no biblical warrant for separation “that includes brethren,” as Bauder claims. And when he says it is “mandated,” but fails to come within 100 miles of establishing that as claim as valid from Scripture, it becomes either dangerous, or damnable (1 John 2:19).

Are we mandated in Scripture, itself the voice of God, to separate from brethren? No.

What we have here is either human error, or something worse from the evil one to confuse precious believers. This idea of separation from Christians, based on 2 John 7-11, I reject, and will choose to love my brethren. I also warn all to flee such teaching, and to seek to love all who love the Lord Jesus Christ with an unfeigned love.

1 John 3:11: For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

Ted, two things

1) Kevin’s use of “separation” in reference to brethren often means nothing more than “His conference as at the same time as another one I’m already commited to, so I can’t attend,” or “He’s not a premillenialist, so I’ll not invite him to my prophecy conference” etc. Totally non-punitive.

2) If love of the brethren is incompatible with separation from brethren, what do you do with passages like these?

1 Co 5:11–13 ~11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner— not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

2 Th 3:6 ~6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

2 Th 3:14 ~14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed.


Seems clear to me, especially in the Thessalonian case, that the separation is employed because of love of the brethren (among other things).

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Aaron Blumer] Ted

1) Kevin’s use of “separation” in reference to brethren often means nothing more than “His conference as at the same time as another one I’m already commited to, so I can’t attend,” or “He’s not a premillenialist, so I’ll not invite him to my prophecy conference” etc. Totally non-punitive.
I agree, but he uses the same word to describe separation from apostates. For the less nuanced reader, the more vulnerable believer, it a dangerous equivocation becasue it tempts one to equivocate and compromise with Christ’s words on loving the brethren.
[Aaron Blumer]

2) If love of the brethren is incompatible with separation from brethren, what do you do with passages like these?

1 Co 5:11–13 ~11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner— not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

2 Th 3:6 ~6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

2 Th 3:14 ~14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed.


Seems clear to me, especially in the Thessalonian case, that the separation is employed because of love of the brethren (among other things).
I was hoping someone would respond with precisely those passages, Aaron. In fact, my first response got wiped out by a Windows update, and it discussed those 2 passages, anticipating just such an objection.

I would be happy to write up a blog on it, if wanted. But briefly, those two passages take place within the confines of a local church, and can only be truly applied in that context. Second, they also assume a clear and repeated denunciation of sin has occurred prior to the disassociation, and is not being repented of (unrepentant lying, adultery, theft, laziness, etc.). Neither passage is served well when a clouded discussion on personal preference matters, such as music, is being discussed. If an impenitent member in church continues in impenitence, he/she is put out of the church (1 Cor. 5:13). That doesn’t fit the “separation from brethren” discussion here, does it?

All this discussion neglects the weightier provisions of the law. Long before one can attempt to justify making a case for separation from true Christians, one must spiritually wrestle with the overwhelming commands of Christ and His apostles to love the brethren, and with the Holy Spirit, who brings that command to the believer with heaven’s own authority.

John 13:34: A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

[Ted Bigelow] All this discussion neglects the weightier provisions of the law. Long before one can attempt to justify making a case for separation from true Christians, one must spiritually wrestle with the overwhelming commands of Christ and His apostles to love the brethren, and with the Holy Spirit, who brings that command to the believer with heaven’s own authority.

John 13:34: A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
Excellent point, Ted. Recently we hashed this out and it seemed many just didn’t agree that there’s any sense of unity between Christians as being expected outside of a church. “The unity of the faith” is only in one church’s four walls. This aspect of love for the brethren, certainly can’t be confined. I am continually amazed at how nonchalant fundamentalists are about obeying the exhortations to unity and brotherly love when they are overly zealous to stand for separation from all error.

Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7 I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.

But briefly, those two passages take place within the confines of a local church, and can only be truly applied in that context.
I wonder if we might explore this a bit, Ted. Let’s ignore for the moment the present conversation and focus a few questions on these specific issues to gain some principles outside of the specific issues in this discussion.

1. It seems like you are acknowledging that there is a biblical basis for separation from brothers, but you think it is too often wrongly applied. Am I correct in that observation?

2. Assuming you are right that it only applies in a local church, are you as a part of another church under any obligation to respect the judgment of the body of Christ in another location? Is it prudent, or even right, to ignore the judgment of a local body simply because you are not in that body?

3. If the commands about separation are only applicable to the local church, are the commands about unity only applicable to the local church? Our brother Bob has spent considerable time arguing that unity commands are not local church only, and really not even local area only, but apply universally. (And Bob, feel free to chime in here.) Are you arguing that unity commands are universal but separation commands are only local? If so, on what textual basis do you make that argument?

4. On what textual basis is unity a weightier matter of the law than separation is?

Ted, I am right with you on the problem of lumping all sorts of things into “separation.” It makes things confusing (sometimes I wonder if that’s intentional). See http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=2073&page=1&pp=10] this old thread . For some reason the paper behind it is lost.

But I want to challenge you on your premise that we don’t separate from fellow believers.
2 Thessalonians 3:13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
[Ted Bigelow]…Neither passage is served well when a clouded discussion on personal preference matters, such as music, is being discussed. If an impenitent member in church continues in impenitence, he/she is put out of the church (1 Cor. 5:13). That doesn’t fit the “separation from brethren” discussion here, does it?…
The problem here is that included in the list of 1 Corinthians 5 is greed, which is going to be a tough judgment call for any church.

Dan, the paper you mentioned… some of it is here:

http://sharperiron.org/2006/05/15/separation-split-or-lump-part-1-of-4

Edit: here are the others in that series…

http://sharperiron.org/2006/05/23/separation-non-fellowship-of-convenie…] Part 2 (“non fellowship of convenience”), http://sharperiron.org/2006/05/30/separation-the-purity-of-the-church] Part 3 , http://sharperiron.org/2006/06/19/separation-the-garbc-cedarville-and-t…] Part 4
[Ted] Neither passage is served well when a clouded discussion on personal preference matters, such as music, is being discussed. If an impenitent member in church continues in impenitence, he/she is put out of the church (1 Cor. 5:13). That doesn’t fit the “separation from brethren” discussion here, does it?
We’ve discussed just about all possible angles on it here… and just about all of them recently, too.

(See The http://sharperiron.org/article/intentional-ugliness-of-separation] Intentional Ugliness of Separation , for example)

But we have to be careful about making blanket statements that suggest separation from brethren is not compatible with Christian love.

But what Kevin has described is perfectly legitimate practice. It’s just not helpful to call it separation.

  1. There is nothing unloving about saying to a brother, “We can’t work together on this ministry because we have incompatible views about how it should be done.”
  2. There’s not even anything unloving about saying “I believe you’re theology is off on this point, so I’m not going to speak at your conference. This is too serious to ignore.”
  3. And there’s nothing unloving about saying to a brother, “You’re practicing clear and direct disobedience to Scripture by shacking up with your girlfriend. I can’t really hang out with you unless you want to talk about repentance.”
    Case “C” would be a case of biblical separation from a disobedient brother. Case A is simply selective cooperation, which is something we all practice. Case “B” is recognizing that matters of conscience can be well worth contending for, but what’s happening there is not “separation” in the biblical sense.

    None of these are unloving. “B” could be unloving, but if the desire is to uphold truth… well, it’s always loving to uphold truth and always unloving to promote error or passively support it.

    I’m still wrestling with how the disobedient brother passages relate to matters outside local churches. They texts themselves clearly describe relationships between believers and their local churches. And separation is a relational thing. So how does it apply to relationships inter-church?

    I think “how?” is the right question, not “do they apply?” We recognize that everything else in these epistles speaks to multiple churches. And we recognize that the letters were written with the assumption that they’d be circulated and read by multiple churches.

    So if you’re in church B, you understand that the passage describes your conduct between your members and your church as well.

    But what if you have a disobedient brother from church A?

    (This is another one of those places where I tend to want to say that local church autonomy seems to have a problem… and Charlie says hip, hooray :D )

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Bob Hayton]
[Ted Bigelow] All this discussion neglects the weightier provisions of the law. Long before one can attempt to justify making a case for separation from true Christians, one must spiritually wrestle with the overwhelming commands of Christ and His apostles to love the brethren, and with the Holy Spirit, who brings that command to the believer with heaven’s own authority.

John 13:34: A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
Excellent point, Ted. Recently we hashed this out and it seemed many just didn’t agree that there’s any sense of unity between Christians as being expected outside of a church. “The unity of the faith” is only in one church’s four walls. This aspect of love for the brethren, certainly can’t be confined. I am continually amazed at how nonchalant fundamentalists are about obeying the exhortations to unity and brotherly love when they are overly zealous to stand for separation from all error.
Bob, consider the stunning display of glory in John 17:20-26, where our unity is nothing less than the unity enjoyed in the first two members of the Trinity.

We are limiting our discussion here to ecclesiastical unity. But the broader discussion starts with God’s lavish inclusion of us wretched sinners in His very fellowship with His only Son. Upon that alone we (us who are saved) have true and total unity that will last forever.

[Larry]
But briefly, those two passages take place within the confines of a local church, and can only be truly applied in that context.
I wonder if we might explore this a bit, Ted. Let’s ignore for the moment the present conversation and focus a few questions on these specific issues to gain some principles outside of the specific issues in this discussion.

1. It seems like you are acknowledging that there is a biblical basis for separation from brothers, but you think it is too often wrongly applied. Am I correct in that observation?
yes
Assuming you are right that it only applies in a local church, are you as a part of another church under any obligation to respect the judgment of the body of Christ in another location? Is it prudent, or even right, to ignore the judgment of a local body simply because you are not in that body?
I am under obligation to uphold any church’s discipline that has followed Matthew 18:15-17.
3. If the commands about separation are only applicable to the local church, are the commands about unity only applicable to the local church? Our brother Bob has spent considerable time arguing that unity commands are not local church only, and really not even local area only, but apply universally. (And Bob, feel free to chime in here.) Are you arguing that unity commands are universal but separation commands are only local? If so, on what textual basis do you make that argument?
See my reply to Bob Hayton above. Both unity and separation commands are universal.
4. On what textual basis is unity a weightier matter of the law than separation is?
John 13:34-35, Eph. 4:1-5, 1 Cor. 12, and the many passages that exhort unity. For example, 1 Cor. 1:10 is extremely strong.

[Dan Miller] Ted, I am right with you on the problem of lumping all sorts of things into “separation.” It makes things confusing (sometimes I wonder if that’s intentional). See http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=2073&page=1&pp=10] this old thread . For some reason the paper behind it is lost.

But I want to challenge you on your premise that we don’t separate from fellow believers.
2 Thessalonians 3:13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
[Ted Bigelow]…Neither passage is served well when a clouded discussion on personal preference matters, such as music, is being discussed. If an impenitent member in church continues in impenitence, he/she is put out of the church (1 Cor. 5:13). That doesn’t fit the “separation from brethren” discussion here, does it?…
The problem here is that included in the list of 1 Corinthians 5 is greed, which is going to be a tough judgment call for any church.
Dan, all believers in every church should dis-associate with anyone under a biblically valid stage 3 discipline in order to provoke them to repentance.

[Aaron Blumer] But we have to be careful about making blanket statements that suggest separation from brethren is not compatible with Christian love.
Let’s not use the word “separation” for brothers justly under stage 3 discipline (Mat. 18:17a). Let’s use the word the Bible uses for someone in stage 3 discipline: “dis-fellowshipped” or “dis-associated” (1 Cor. 5:11, 2 Thess. 3:14). Let’s keep the word separated for those separated.

And please remember these 2 passages describe and proscribe only a temporary place in whichthe church’s members obediently confront the dis-fellowshipped person, urging them to repentance (Matt. 18:17a). If they do not repent after a reasonable time, they are put out of the church.

The practice of holding others in perpetual “dis-fellowship” is unbiblical, hurtful, and sinful.
But what Kevin has described is perfectly legitimate practice. It’s just not helpful to call it separation.
His equivocation with the word separation is dangerous. In a matter as important as unity, we must take every care to define what is a biblical principle and what is personal preference (music). Too many tender and temptable Christians will sinfully latch on to separation and neglect love.


  1. There is nothing unloving about saying to a brother, “We can’t work together on this ministry because we have incompatible views about how it should be done.”
  2. There’s not even anything unloving about saying “I believe you’re theology is off on this point, so I’m not going to speak at your conference. This is too serious to ignore.”
  3. And there’s nothing unloving about saying to a brother, “You’re practicing clear and direct disobedience to Scripture by shacking up with your girlfriend. I can’t really hang out with you unless you want to talk about repentance.”
    Case “C” would be a case of biblical separation from a disobedient brother.
Only the 3rd case approaches separation. It demands the 4th and final stage of discipline as enjoined by Christ Himself (if the man remains impenitent).
I’m still wrestling with how the disobedient brother passages relate to matters outside local churches. They texts themselves clearly describe relationships between believers and their local churches. And separation is a relational thing. So how does it apply to relationships inter-church?
Our Lord would enjoin us to recognize only those put out of a church that has diligently practiced Mat. 18:15-17 as gentiles and tax collectors.

We also must separate from those with false doctrine concerning Christ and His gospel (2 John 7-11).
So if you’re in church B, you understand that the passage describes your conduct between your members and your church as well.

But what if you have a disobedient brother from church A?
Happens all the time. You honor any valid church discipline, and when that hasn’t occurred, pastoral ministry requires intensive investigation into the facts of the case (Mat. 18:16).
(This is another one of those places where I tend to want to say that local church autonomy seems to have a problem… and Charlie says hip, hooray :D )
Aaron, i know of no problem.

Only local autonomy answers the biblical texts. Connectionalism takes the discipline out of the local church, as Jesus Christ commanded, and “bumps it up” to a church court outside the local church. Please do not desire it.
[Ted Bigelow]

Happens all the time. You honor any valid church discipline, and when that hasn’t occurred, pastoral ministry requires intensive investigation into the facts of the case (Mat. 18:16).
But of course, what you just said hinges on the word “valid.” How do you make that determination?

If a church gradually moves to a KJVO doctrine (and I’ve been in a church like this), and someone in that church cannot go that direction, and the church exercises Matt. 18 properly (even though against a doctrine many of us would consider to be invalid) and throws out the “unrepentant” (he is, after all, holding to heresy, against what that local church believes) person, is a church that doesn’t hold that doctrine bound to recognize that discipline?

The same types of examples can be found for many issues that are not simply violations of “thou shalt not” (like adultery, etc.). How valid do you believe discipline on those disputed issues to be outside that church?

This is where the independent model breaks down. Since there is no central authority of any kind to determine what the approved position is on items that are not direct scriptural command, there will be many different ideas on what a “discipline worthy” offense really is. (I’m not arguing for the centralized model here; I’m simply agreeing with Aaron that the independent model is not without issues.)

Dave Barnhart

[Ted Bigelow]
[Dan Miller] Ted, I am right with you on the problem of lumping all sorts of things into “separation.” It makes things confusing (sometimes I wonder if that’s intentional). See http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=2073&page=1&pp=10] this old thread . For some reason the paper behind it is lost.

But I want to challenge you on your premise that we don’t separate from fellow believers.
2 Thessalonians 3:13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
[Ted Bigelow]…Neither passage is served well when a clouded discussion on personal preference matters, such as music, is being discussed. If an impenitent member in church continues in impenitence, he/she is put out of the church (1 Cor. 5:13). That doesn’t fit the “separation from brethren” discussion here, does it?…
The problem here is that included in the list of 1 Corinthians 5 is greed, which is going to be a tough judgment call for any church.
Dan, all believers in every church should dis-associate with anyone under a biblically valid stage 3 discipline in order to provoke them to repentance.
Ted,

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim that Mat 18 is a local church issue only that does not represent in any way separating of brothers from different local bodies then turn around and claim that a judgement passed in one local church is binding on another. Besides, that seems to completely undermine the concept of autonomy of the local church. Wouldn’t it be better to say that we are obligated to take another church’s judgement under advisement? I mean, we don’t accept their membership status in our body, why would be accept their disfellowshipping in our body?

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

[dcbii]
[Ted Bigelow]

Happens all the time. You honor any valid church discipline, and when that hasn’t occurred, pastoral ministry requires intensive investigation into the facts of the case (Mat. 18:16).
But of course, what you just said hinges on the word “valid.” How do you make that determination?

If a church gradually moves to a KJVO doctrine (and I’ve been in a church like this), and someone in that church cannot go that direction, and the church exercises Matt. 18 properly (even though against a doctrine many of us would consider to be invalid) and throws out the “unrepentant” (he is, after all, holding to heresy, against what that local church believes) person, is a church that doesn’t hold that doctrine bound to recognize that discipline?

The same types of examples can be found for many issues that are not simply violations of “thou shalt not” (like adultery, etc.). How valid do you believe discipline on those disputed issues to be outside that church?

This is where the independent model breaks down. Since there is no central authority of any kind to determine what the approved position is on items that are not direct scriptural command, there will be many different ideas on what a “discipline worthy” offense really is. (I’m not arguing for the centralized model here; I’m simply agreeing with Aaron that the independent model is not without issues.)
The “independent model” doesn’t break down. It can’t. It is based on the revelation of an omniscient God, is what our Lord taught in Mat. 18:17, and is the only “model” in the canon.

“Hinges” depends upon the discipline being based on what Jesus meant when He referred to “established evidence” of sin (Mat. 18:16, Deut. 17:6, Deu. 19:15). Learn what your Lord Jesus means, and that will take care of all the non-issues, too, like KJVO.

[Chip Van Emmerik]
[Ted Bigelow]
[Dan Miller] Ted, I am right with you on the problem of lumping all sorts of things into “separation.” It makes things confusing (sometimes I wonder if that’s intentional). See http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=2073&page=1&pp=10] this old thread . For some reason the paper behind it is lost.

But I want to challenge you on your premise that we don’t separate from fellow believers.
2 Thessalonians 3:13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
[Ted Bigelow]…Neither passage is served well when a clouded discussion on personal preference matters, such as music, is being discussed. If an impenitent member in church continues in impenitence, he/she is put out of the church (1 Cor. 5:13). That doesn’t fit the “separation from brethren” discussion here, does it?…
The problem here is that included in the list of 1 Corinthians 5 is greed, which is going to be a tough judgment call for any church.
Dan, all believers in every church should dis-associate with anyone under a biblically valid stage 3 discipline in order to provoke them to repentance.
Ted,

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim that Mat 18 is a local church issue only that does not represent in any way separating of brothers from different local bodies then turn around and claim that a judgement passed in one local church is binding on another. Besides, that seems to completely undermine the concept of autonomy of the local church. Wouldn’t it be better to say that we are obligated to take another church’s judgement under advisement? I mean, we don’t accept their membership status in our body, why would be accept their disfellowshipping in our body?
Yep, agreed. We are responsible out of love for the person, and Christ, to see if they followed Mat. 18. If they did, then we are obligated to honor the discipline.

Ted,

Perhaps you missed a part of the discussion. During the last several minutes, I hypothetically attributed to Van Osdel the tactics of Billy Graham. I thought that I did this in such a transparent way that no one could miss the parallel. Then I ask what we should do if Van Osdel had adopted these tactics.

Here is the answer:

“Let me talk minimalistically. If Van Osdel had done such a thing, my response would be this. We should not be following his leadership. If Van Osdel had done such a thing, we should not hold that man up as a model of Christian perception or insight or discernment. If Van Osdel had worked toward such a compromised position with Alfred Wishart and Fountain Street Baptist Church, I think we could rightly say of him, “That is scandalous.” It is so scandalous it is as bad as anything you will find in 1 Corinthians chapter 5, and I think we ought to treat him accordingly.”

I think that qualifies as separation from a believer, or what some would call “secondary separation.” And I believe that it is absolutely mandated by the text of 2 John. We have a brother who has made himself a partner (joint owner) in apostasy. How can we think that his joint ownership will not damage our relationship? How could we ever point to such a person as discerning Christian leader?

[Ted] Let’s not use the word “separation” for brothers justly under stage 3 discipline (Mat. 18:17a). Let’s use the word the Bible uses for someone in stage 3 discipline: “dis-fellowshipped” or “dis-associated” (1 Cor. 5:11, 2 Thess. 3:14). Let’s keep the word separated for those separated.

And please remember these 2 passages describe and proscribe only a temporary place in whichthe church’s members obediently confront the dis-fellowshipped person, urging them to repentance (Matt. 18:17a). If they do not repent after a reasonable time, they are put out of the church.

The practice of holding others in perpetual “dis-fellowship” is unbiblical, hurtful, and sinful.
The texts don’t actually use the words disfellowshiped or disassociated. They use phrases like “have no company” and “with such a one not to eat” and “let him be to you as a heathen and a publican.” I think separation is as good a word as any and has the advantage of historical usage in reference to these acts.

Kevin… I’m not seeing your Van Osdel post… maybe it’s in a different thread?
[Steve Davis] No one’s saying that all forms are okay, or at least I’m not. All forms are human creations, perhaps some reflecting more of God’s image but all affected more or less by sin with redeemable elements that can be put at the service of God and the gospel – rap music in this instance. My argument is against the pretense that one has discovered the forms more or most pleasing to God aesthetically, in this case sounding very western, white, middle-class American, and from that make blanket statements that go beyond Scripture about what is sinful.
“with redeemable elements”… Why should we believe that all forms have redeemable elements? (I’m not necessarily against this idea. But I’m not sure rap is a “form” in this sense. What if we take all the “redeemable elements” out of a particular form and give what’s left a name? Does what’s left still constitute a form with redeemable elements? I think we have to admit that human beings are capable of coming up with modes of expression that have nothing, or pretty close to nothing, redeemable because the cultural forces that have shaped it involve a conscious rejection of anything a Christian worldview would identify as redeemable. In short, in some cases, if there’s anything redeemable left it’s because those shaping the “form” have failed to some extent in their own agenda.)

“Pretense that one has discovered…” Whether it’s pretense would depend on the strength of arguments for and against it (as well as the idea of knowingly conveying falsehood… I’m assuming a bit of hyperbole in the word “pretense,” there, Steve— and so the relevant question is, how strong are the arguments?). There’s no question that a whole lot of weak ones have been offered.

But I have yet to see qualitatively better arguments for the idea that products of a consciously Christian-morality-rejecting culture and products of a consciously Christian-morality-embracing culture are equally good for Christian purposes. Just take the former, yank the lyrics out and plug in sacred ones and we’ve got something “redeemed”?

I’m tempted to call this pretense.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Aaron Blumer]
[Ted] Let’s not use the word “separation” for brothers justly under stage 3 discipline (Mat. 18:17a). Let’s use the word the Bible uses for someone in stage 3 discipline: “dis-fellowshipped” or “dis-associated” (1 Cor. 5:11, 2 Thess. 3:14). Let’s keep the word separated for those separated.

And please remember these 2 passages describe and proscribe only a temporary place in whichthe church’s members obediently confront the dis-fellowshipped person, urging them to repentance (Matt. 18:17a). If they do not repent after a reasonable time, they are put out of the church.

The practice of holding others in perpetual “dis-fellowship” is unbiblical, hurtful, and sinful.
The texts don’t actually use the words disfellowshiped or disassociated. They use phrases like “have no company” and “with such a one not to eat” and “let him be to you as a heathen and a publican.” I think separation is as good a word as any and has the advantage of historical usage in reference to these acts.
While I disagree with Ted’s views on separation overall, I think there is an important distinction between church discipline and separation that is easily blurred by mis-using the discipline texts as separation texts. When we are disciplining someone, it is an internal, personal, corrective and punitive matter. When we are separating from someone (or some organization) ecclesiastically, we are not so much trying to punish people external to us who have erred as preserve and protect the flock that God has given us. While it is popular among a younger set to include Mt 18 and 1 Cor 5 as separation texts, I don’t think it is correct to do so. I don’t know when these texts were included as separation texts in instructing people, but that is a new, and in my opinion, an unfortunate development in more recent years.
[Aaron Blumer] Kevin… I’m not seeing your Van Osdel post… maybe it’s in a different thread?
I think he is referring to his message on 2 John at the AtC conference.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

[Kevin T. Bauder] Ted,

Perhaps you missed a part of the discussion. During the last several minutes, I hypothetically attributed to Van Osdel the tactics of Billy Graham. I thought that I did this in such a transparent way that no one could miss the parallel. Then I ask what we should do if Van Osdel had adopted these tactics.

Here is the answer:

“Let me talk minimalistically. If Van Osdel had done such a thing, my response would be this. We should not be following his leadership. If Van Osdel had done such a thing, we should not hold that man up as a model of Christian perception or insight or discernment. If Van Osdel had worked toward such a compromised position with Alfred Wishart and Fountain Street Baptist Church, I think we could rightly say of him, “That is scandalous.” It is so scandalous it is as bad as anything you will find in 1 Corinthians chapter 5, and I think we ought to treat him accordingly.”

I think that qualifies as separation from a believer, or what some would call “secondary separation.” And I believe that it is absolutely mandated by the text of 2 John. We have a brother who has made himself a partner (joint owner) in apostasy. How can we think that his joint ownership will not damage our relationship? How could we ever point to such a person as discerning Christian leader?
Kevin, the “separation” from a brother in the New Testament is always punitive and refomatory, in addition to being declarative. IOW, we not only tell the sin, we do so in a context that the wandering sheep may be restored to Christ and His church. As well, separation is always preceded by humble and forthright confrontation as the situation requires.

Further, all separation from a brother must be followed by a removal from the church if he remains impenitent after the church goes to him and calls him to repent (Mat. 18:17a). In other words, separation from a brother, as prescribed in the NT, is temporary as well as punitive and reformatory. Your ideas on separation are not.

Your view of separation does not punish and reform, but only declares. Thus it fails to rise to the threshold of biblical separation. Your separation leave the “offender” – say Mark Dever – in a perpetual state of being under some vague and undefined punishment. But Mark is not actually under any ecclesiastical discipline. At least, not as the NT teaches it. Thus he rightly laughs and wonders where the slanderer of God’s elect is in the whole thing. The practice of separation from a brother, as practiced in fundamentalism, leaves a believer under a cloud of separation in perpetuity. It is unloving, unbiblical, and hurtful.

I know you feel an obligation to the larger body of Christ to protect them from the dangers you see, but you misuse the real power God has given to you. That real power is the clear teaching of the Word of God.

If you do wish to show Mark his errant doctrine, just declare it using Scripture, and do it to the best of all your godly capacities. Leave the separation stuff to the connectionalists and papists and those popes in Baptist clothes who are renowned for their persecution of true believers. Mark went into public ministry and his ideas and doctrines are worthy of public scrutiny. Just do your due diligence and be ready to be likewise corrected and or reproved by Scripture where incorrect.

And if you do reprove Mark, don’t add the idea of punishment to your teaching by recommending separation. Otherwise dear believers will mistakenly read 1 Cor 5 and 2 Thess 3 into your words, and the Lord may reprove you for tempting his children to think contemptibly of Mark. Truth is, you have nothing to punish him with, and such separation belies the NT teaching on church autonomy.

2 John 7-11 does not teach separation from a believer. It does teach that a believer who knowingly greets an apostate teacher loses reward. But John does not instruct the fellowship that received 2 John to separate from that believer. I was so relieved to hear your upright handling of that passage. You did not go beyond the text, and claim that the fellowship of 2 John was commanded to separate from such an errant brother. Lord bless you, brother.

Ted,

Let’s not turn this into a debate over stipulative definitions. I think that I have exegetical support for mine, you think that I do not, but that’s not really the point right now. The question is whether 2 John 7-11 requires some kind of separation from some believers.

You state that the text simply teaches that certain believers simply lose reward, but it does not require us to separate from them.

My response is that the text teaches considerably more than you seem willing to acknowledge. A believer who bids “chairein” to an apostate does not simply lose something (reward) he also gains something. The something that he gains is participation or joint ownership in the evil done by the apostate. How can that not be a grave matter?

A believer who receives or greets an apostate becomes joint owner in the evil done by the apostate. But what if the believer offers more than simply reception and greeting? What if the believer, acting in the name of Christ, actually engages the apostate as a joint partner in the putative work of the gospel? What if the believer, speaking in the name of Christ, tells people that the apostate is a trustworthy Christian leader? What if the believer, acting in the name of Christ, sends tender young believers to be brainwashed by the apostate? What if he actually brokers a deal to exchange souls for recognition by the apostate?

All of this goes considerably beyond the situation that John envisions. If mere reception and greeting makes one a joint owner in the evil of apostasy, what must be true of the believer that I have just described? How can we treat him less seriously than we would treat an adulterer or a swindler? For he is a spiritual adulterer and a theological huckster.

I’ve expressed a “minimalist” opinion about how such a brother ought to be treated. I think it’s possible to say quite a bit more. At the moment, however, that is not my concern. If you have not accepted the minimal separation that I described in the sermon, you are not likely to accept the more robust separation that I believe ought to be implemented.

What I am concerned with is this.

I would like to know just what you think we should do about such a believer?

[Kevin T. Bauder] Ted,

What I am concerned with is this.

I would like to know just what you think we should do about such a believer?
Kevin, step 1, go reprove that believer. Let him or her know they are violating 2 John 11. Give them time to repent. If they do not, step 2: take one or two others with you to serve as witnesses. If the matter is established as factual and the person is impenitent, step 3: tell the church to go confront the brother/sister. If there is no repentance after receiving personal confrontation by the church, step 4: put him out. Then consider him no longer a brother, but a Gentile/tax collector (Matthew 18:15-17).

If the person is outside your church, you and your church are without ecclesiastical authority over them. Nor does the word of God grant you any. You will have to accept that limitation as a wise choice of Jesus Christ. You can still do steps 1 and 2, but not 3 and 4. Those steps must be done by the church in which that impenitent person is a member of. You have a godly responsibility to let that church’s leaders know of the sin, the confrontations, and the impenitence of steps 1 and 2, but then it becomes their responsibility, not yours. They will need to see if you have done steps 1 and 2 biblically, and then they are responsible to handle it from there.

I have found in my years of ministry, and in working through inter-church disciplinary issues, that the Word of God is robust enough to anticipate, and cover, even the most twisted of scenarios of human sin and deception. And I’ve been through quite a few inter-church discipline issues with churches of all sizes, and have seen a range of responses – from stupid, to biblical. I have found Jay Adam’s book on church discipline to be helpful in working through the larger issues of inter-church realities. For a connectional author, he sticks with text, doesn’t go to church courts, and really helps us who are autonomous think through some tough issues well. “Handbook of Church Discipline.”
The question is whether 2 John 7-11 requires some kind of separation from some believers.
I can’t claim this passage teaches separation from a brother, nor can you. It simply warns us not to participate in any way with an apostate. You want it to make an additional claim that it just doesn’t make. Sorry.

Charien is a greeting, not a tent meeting. The word does not suggest co-laborship or joint labor, as you seem to want the text to read. You are reading the strongest possible meaning into koinonei as possible, but the word “greet” should dampen your understanding of that fluid 1st Century word that possessed a broad range of interpretive options to initial hospitality and nothing more.

Kevin, if you do have a brother who refuses to conform to 2 John 11 after you have warned him, you now have a discipline issue to deal with, and Christ’s words in Mat. 18 will guide you step by step at that point.

Maybe it’s just me, but it seems pretty clear to me that John is speaking to relationships with non-believers, not about relationships with ‘apostate’ or erring believers. I don’t have the time to deal with the greek right now, but the text says (with emphasis added):
04. I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father.

05. And now I ask you, dear lady— not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—) that we love one another.

06. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

07. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

08. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.

09. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

10. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,

11. for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
So I think that alters the way the verse is applied. If these people are indeed deceivers and ‘antichrist’, then that makes it pretty easy for me to say that we ought not to have anything to do with them at all, which is why I think I disagree with both Ted and Dr. Bauder - you can’t take a passage that is talking about the unregenerate and then apply it to the those who are saved but in error.

I John 2 is very similar to the admonition in 2 John:
Warning Concerning Antichrists

18. Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

20. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.

21. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.

22. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

23. No one who denies the Son has the Father.
Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.

24. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

25. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.

26. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.

27. But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
Maybe someone else can help me here?

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

I think the rub is v. 11. “for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” So whoever greets the antichrist/deceiver, literally takes part in the antichrist’s/deceiver’s wicked works.

So I’m still more with Ted than Kevin here. Yes it is wrong to greet him. But the text does not go a step further and tell us what to do with the one who does the greeting of the unregenerate antichrist/deceiver.

Kevin is saying you can extrapolate from this and say affirming an unregenerate antichrist type is even more than partaking of his deeds…. But everything is to be judged individually. Each case on its own merits, and we’re in a stronger position if we stick with Matt. 18 and 1 Cor. 5 to guide us.

Any kind of separation flowing from this would approach Rom. 16 I think and be punitive, still, and not the kind advocated here. Using rap music is really equivalent to approving or greeting an antichrist???

Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7 I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.

[Jay C.] I think I disagree with both Ted and Dr. Bauder - you can’t take a passage that is talking about the unregenerate and then apply it to the those who are saved but in error.
Jay, you just stated my position. Thanks. You can call me Dr. Bigelow, but then you might want to call Kevin “Dr. Dr.” He received his at Trinity and Dallas, I received mine only at Southern.

If nothing else, this conversation certainly illustrates the complexity of the topic.

It’s fairly difficult to build a systematic theology of separation that continues to work when you start throwing real life scenarios at it.

On discipline vs. separation….

I do see two separation relationships in Scripture. (“Separation relationships” sounds oxymoronic, but it really isn’t. It’s relating distantly on purpose). Separation from apostates (these are not brothers, though they make some claim to the faith) and separation from brothers.

As far as the biblical texts go, the latter is the same thing as discipline. Practicing this form of sep. outside of a local church-to-believer relationship requires extracting some principles from these passages and applying them to a different situation.

But the texts involved terminate in some form of “have no company with” or “with such a one not to eat” etc. The same kind of language we have in Rom. 16 in ref. to apostates. It’s still separation.

In both the apostasy case and the erring brother brother case, the purity of the church is a purpose. The erring brother scenario includes another purpose, the repentance of the sinning Christian. (If 1Cor.5 is about brothers, you have both in that passage. But I’m not quite sure yet where that passages fits… are they brothers or just “so called” brothers? But something like a repentant outcome is alluded to there, and the purity of the church is clearly a concern.)

The 1 John 2 case is interesting because it does establish a particular kind of disobedient brother. We have apostates (the “antichrists”) there, but we also have those who are partners with the apostates because of how they relate to them (presumably, part of John’s point is to tell these to stop doing what they are doing). So it’s no stretch to see application to disobedient brethren in the passage. It’s not obedient to greet and bless the antichrists. The problem is that the passage doesn’t tell us what to do about the brothers who do greet and bless the antichrists.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Ted,

I doubt that you will be able to restrict your handling of the situation to the local church context, however much you might wish to. And I doubt that you really wish to.

You have the same warrant for dealing with an indifferentist brother that you have for dealing with an adulterer, an embezzler, or a character assassin. In both cases, you will necessarily go outside your local church.

Suppose the church across town has a pastor who is a notorious philanderer. Do you seriously mean to tell me that this fact would have no bearing on your involvement with him? What if he were a child molester? A terrorist?

You are going to have to make all sorts of decisions about fellowship and cooperation. Some of those decisions will concern members of your church and some of them will not. Will you support a missionary who is a slanderer? Will you speak at a church or conference that features a scandal-ridden pulpiteer? Will you send the girls of your church to a Christian college that has a professor who will try to seduce them? If your neighbor pastor asks for a recommendation, what will you tell him? When Brother Embezzler is coming to town for evangelistic meetings, will you support the meetings? Will you encourage people to go? Will you endorse them?

Each of these scenarios, and countless others, involves a decision between fellowship and separation at some level. Either the Bible says something that will guide you in making those decisions, or you are left to your own best guess.

I think too highly of you to believe that you will not use the Scriptures as your guide. When it comes to Dr. Pedophile, I’m pretty sure that you’ll find a biblical reason not to serve on a parachurch board or committee with him. And you’ll be right—you’ll be a separatist.

I see no difference when it comes to Brother Indifferentist. When he is the issue, then 2 John is the Scripture that tells us how to evaluate his conduct. He is as bad as the fornicator, the swindler, or the pervert. He dethrones the gospel from its rightful place as the demarcator between Christianity and apostasy. He obscures the importance and perhaps the truth of the gospel. According to the text, he is a partner in the evil of apostasy. He bears the weight of damned souls in his conscience.

Please don’t suggest that we are just supposed to ignore that.

Kevin, exactly right. I appreciated your message on 2 Jn from this conference, had the opportunity to listen to it while wending my way through the Cascades the other day. You are exactly right on the warrant to separate beyond the bounds of the local church.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

[Kevin T. Bauder] Ted,

I doubt that you will be able to restrict your handling of the situation to the local church context, however much you might wish to. And I doubt that you really wish to.

You have the same warrant for dealing with an indifferentist brother that you have for dealing with an adulterer, an embezzler, or a character assassin. In both cases, you will necessarily go outside your local church.

Suppose the church across town has a pastor who is a notorious philanderer. Do you seriously mean to tell me that this fact would have no bearing on your involvement with him? What if he were a child molester? A terrorist?

You are going to have to make all sorts of decisions about fellowship and cooperation. Some of those decisions will concern members of your church and some of them will not. Will you support a missionary who is a slanderer? Will you speak at a church or conference that features a scandal-ridden pulpiteer? Will you send the girls of your church to a Christian college that has a professor who will try to seduce them? If your neighbor pastor asks for a recommendation, what will you tell him? When Brother Embezzler is coming to town for evangelistic meetings, will you support the meetings? Will you encourage people to go? Will you endorse them?

Each of these scenarios, and countless others, involves a decision between fellowship and separation at some level. Either the Bible says something that will guide you in making those decisions, or you are left to your own best guess.

I think too highly of you to believe that you will not use the Scriptures as your guide. When it comes to Dr. Pedophile, I’m pretty sure that you’ll find a biblical reason not to serve on a parachurch board or committee with him. And you’ll be right—you’ll be a separatist.

I see no difference when it comes to Brother Indifferentist. When he is the issue, then 2 John is the Scripture that tells us how to evaluate his conduct. He is as bad as the fornicator, the swindler, or the pervert. He dethrones the gospel from its rightful place as the demarcator between Christianity and apostasy. He obscures the importance and perhaps the truth of the gospel. According to the text, he is a partner in the evil of apostasy. He bears the weight of damned souls in his conscience.

Please don’t suggest that we are just supposed to ignore that.
Kevin,

Our Lord told us we will know false Christians by their fruits (Mat. 7:15ff). I don’t think you realize it but you are calling such people “brethren,” (Brother Embezzler, Dr. Pedophile, Brother Indifferentist). I am not so generous as you.

Even Brother Indifferentist, if he refuses to stop associating with unbelievers in specifically religious undertakings, is violating God’s word in Scripture (2 Cor. 6:14-16). He violates Titus 1:9 (“holding fast the faithful word”), and perhaps I am the one responsible to confront him as per Mat. 18:15-16, and tell him that if he fails to immediately repent then he is no longer qualified to lead in Christ’s church by God’s non-negotiable standards for every church leader. I had a scenario in a congregational church I once pastored – the man was in my church – and was on the steering committee of evangelist Luis Palau and his “festival” here in CT. The “festival” intentionally tried to associate the Christian gospel with liberal Protestantism, the prosperity gospel, and Catholicism. After being confronted he left us and went to another church whose pastor rejected my counsel and approved of his actions. Time has revealed the rightness of the course of action we took.

If Brother Indifferentist refuses to submit to God’s standards, his church is to be told of his fault (Mat. 18:17). If they fail to act they are not to be recognized as a Christian church. Such a sober judgment may be delivered by a meeting with its leaders, or if they are unwilling, by letter.

Then, as shepherds we have a responsibility to protect the flock with which we have been entrusted, and to, if necessary, point out the error publicly. But typically, not before steps 1 and 2 of Christ’s discipline process have been carried out, and the other church has failed to respond in a timely manner to Mat. 18:17.

Bottom line: we don’t separate from brethren, but only from those who refuse to obey the word of God. Before we separate, we confront in the hopes of restoring the person to obedience to Christ. But if a man refuses to honor the word of God, we do not regard him as a Christian. We must regard him as an enemy of the gospel, for our Lord has told us we will know them by their fruits.

After being confronted he left us and went to another church whose pastor rejected my counsel and approved of his actions. Time has revealed the rightness of the course of action we took.
Interestingly, it seems here that you are revealing that you do not bind yourself only to another church’s actions, but make decisions on your own apart from them. You have decided this church should have disciplined or rejected this guy, and even though they didn’t, you have done so yourself. So in seeming contradiction to your earlier statement, church discipline is not local church only. You, in this case, do not seem to feel bound to honor another church’s judgment.
If Brother Indifferentist refuses to submit to God’s standards, his church is to be told of his fault (Mat. 18:17). If they fail to act they are not to be recognized as a Christian church.
So a church that doesn’t agree with you about the application of Scripture is not a Christian church? Or am I misunderstanding you here?
Bottom line: we don’t separate from brethren, but only from those who refuse to obey the word of God.
Here again I am confused, on two counts this time. First, earlier in response to my question I think you affirmed that we should separate from brothers, but you think it has too often been wrongly applied. Here you say again we don’t separate from brethren. Which is it?

Second, you seem to be drawing a distinction between brothers and those who refuse to obey the word of God, thus implying that brothers never disobey the word. I can’t imagine that is what you are saying, but I am struggling to see another way to read your sentence. Can you help clarify?
But if a man refuses to honor the word of God, we do not regard him as a Christian. We must regard him as an enemy of the gospel, for our Lord has told us we will know them by their fruits.
And yet 2 Thessalonians 3 says exactly the opposite: If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. 15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Here it seems that the person is refusing to honor the Word of God (unless you contend that 2 Thess 3 is not a part of the Word of God). Paul specifically says do not regard him as an enemy (though you say we “must regard him as an enemy). Paul further says to admonish him “as a brother” (though you say we do not regard him as a CHristian). So it seems, at face value, that in three specific points you are disagreeing with Paul. Can you clarify this for us?

… if you’re stilling following this thread.
[Kevin] I see no difference when it comes to Brother Indifferentist. When he is the issue, then 2 John is the Scripture that tells us how to evaluate his conduct. He is as bad as the fornicator, the swindler, or the pervert. He dethrones the gospel from its rightful place as the demarcator between Christianity and apostasy. He obscures the importance and perhaps the truth of the gospel. According to the text, he is a partner in the evil of apostasy. He bears the weight of damned souls in his conscience.
I’m thinking that though you see the brother who greets the apostate (per 1 John 2) as disobedient and partner in the apostasy, you do not see the response to this brother as being the same as the response to the apostate. Have I understood you accurately on that point?

They’d both be “separation,” at least eventually (assuming the brother who is partnering doesn’t repent), but the process is different in the case of the brother?

Another question for whoever… do we think that a disobedient brother who persists in non-repentance and reaches the end of the Matt.18 process, for example, is the same thing as an apostate?

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

I came from a separatist fundamentalist Baptist background. In high school I dated a wonderful, godly Christian girl who attended a different denomination. It was NOT encouraged (read that, “Are you SURE she’s a Christian??”). I “danced” in the wedding scene in our high school musical, Brigadoon. My youth pastor gave me a talk about dancing. I brought some friends from high school to church and they got saved. They didn’t stay—they just felt the whole atmosphere stifling. I went to a Christian college and when we had evangelistic meetings, we were encouraged to invite someone from town. I worked with a very nice guy who came to hear our speaker—the only person I EVER saw actually do that in the years I was there(!). At the “invitation” the college president came out into the auditorium and tried to talk my friend into coming forward. Well, he didn’t respond to that pressure and I never got close to discussing Christ with him again (though we remained friends). I had serious problems with the college discipline system. I worked full time job nights and one day I overslept some classes. Could I appeal the demerits that I received in one day that amounted to one-third of the amount needed to be expelled? Of course not. Even in pastoral ministry for the past 30+ years, I’ve gradually felt disenfranchised and out of step with the fundamentalist schools and church associations I’d been in. Still do to some degree. My point is that there are many others like me. One of the only glimmers of hope I ever got during seminary was the statement of one of the professors (who didn’t last long there) who said, “You can be my brother without being my twin.” I have clung to that statement like a drowning man to a life preserver. There are too few men who allow for genuine love and fellowship when they disagree. I think Bob Hampton was saying that there IS a terrible lack of Christian kindness. We seem so wrapped up in “separation” that, as I’ve said before, all we’re known for is what we’re AGAINST and not what we’re FOR. If Dever, Bauder, or anyone else is wrong on a point, I acknowledge FIRST that I’m probably far more wrong in the whole scheme of things than they will EVER be! And if they’re wrong in a serious way, I wonder if I’ll remember to pray for them?!?! So, we surely can dissect the Ins and Outs of separation but we’d better do so as we practice Ephesians 4:15. I’m not trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I hope we can save the baby AND keep the water as clean as possible.

gdwightlarson "You can be my brother without being my twin."

My point is that there are many others like me.
You are absolutely right. Unfortunately, at least with my background the doctrine of separation has been abused much, much more than it has been correctly applied.

Thanks for sharing your experience. My own has some pretty ugly places & moments, but was much more mixed.

At any rate, when a group takes a biblical idea and botches it, we have mainly two responses to choose from: 1) reject everything they endorsed & taught or 2) recover the biblical ideas from their faulty understanding/faulty execution.

I think it’s easier to do the latter if we’ve done enough study and reflection to feel a strong personal conviction about what ought to be recovered… then poor execution has the opposite effect of making was want to abandon the ideas. It intensifies our desire to liberate the ideas from the way some (or many) have misunderstood them or carried them out badly.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Didn’t mean to come off as embittered by the negative experiences I had in fundamentalism. We all have scars. Dr. Doug McLachlan was another early ray of light in the dark days (subjectively speaking) of my fundamentalism experience. So was Les Ollilla. Same with men within the GARBC. I’m very glad things have changed for the better, including Bauder’s leadership within the Central orbit and beyond (including conversations/fellowship with Mark Dever). I agree with those who feel we can be fundamentalists AND still be friends with non-fundamentalists. I enjoy pastoring a healthy (but far from perfect) church now, but I have friends from my childhood, college and seminary days, and even more recent pastoral friendships who are “lost” to fundamentalism. But they’re strong and healthy spiritually and that’s just so much more important to me now.

gdwightlarson "You can be my brother without being my twin."

Dave Doran has a parallel series going right now on his blog http://gloryandgrace.dbts.edu/ here . You can also find the posts on the SI blogroll.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?