One Mom’s Look at Tedd Tripp’s Book: Shepherding a Child’s Heart
[amazon 0966378601 thumbnail] |
(Today and Thursday, we’ll be posting two perspectives on Christian parenting. Anne Sokol’s focuses on Tedd Tripp’s popular book on parenting. In tomorrow’s article, Aaron Blumer writes on “The Simplicity of Biblical Parenting.”)
For brevity, I focus here on my disagreements with Shepherding a Child’s Heart—its application of some Scriptures and its overall emphasis. My main concerns are these:
- The book’s focus on requiring obedience as the primary component of the parent/child relationship and emphasis on parental authority as the right to require obedience.
- Tripp’s teaching that spanking is the means the parent must use in order to bring a child back into “the circle of blessing.”
- Tripp’s interpretation that the “rod” in Proverbs equals spanking, that spanking is even for young children, that spanking is the God-ordained means of discipline (which parents must obey) and that use of the rod saves a child’s soul from death.
- His portrayal of any other style or method of parenting in a derogatory manner and training parents’ consciences that failure to discipline as his book teaches is disobedience to God.
These points are the heart of Tripp’s teaching, and while his book contains many truths, it does not communicate the full truth of gospel-oriented parenting, as he claims it does.
1. Is obedience the primary component of the parent-child relationship, and is it right for parents to mainly exercise their authority as the right to require obedience?
For several reasons, I see the obedience emphasis as a frustrating, and even false, paradigm for the parent/child relationship. The truth of the gospel is that my child will never obey me or God perfectly while on the earth. I, an adult, will never obey God perfectly on this earth. The essence of the gospel is that perfect obedience to God’s standards is only achieved by Christ—and in Him, we are free from this exacting burden.
So emphasizing obedience as the primary component of the family relationship, as Tripp does, distorts the gospel and puts our focus on ourselves and our sinfulness—not only because we will always fail, but also because our works are not praiseworthy; they are only acceptable insomuch as they are the Spirit’s work. The gospel focuses us on Christ’s obedience and His complete sufficiency for us. And the deeper we understand and accept that truth, the more we are transformed into His image (i.e., the more we obey). Obedience is the fruit, not the object. Obedience is our joyful freedom, not our punishable law.
Martin Luther wrote:
Therefore the first care of every Christian ought to be to lay aside all reliance on works, and strengthen his faith alone more and more, and by it grow in the knowledge, not of works, but of Christ Jesus, who has suffered and risen again for him, as Peter teaches (1 Peter v.) when he makes no other work to be a Christian one….
Then comes in that other part of Scripture, the promises of God, which declare the glory of God, and say, “If you wish to fulfil [sic] the law, and, as the law requires, not to covet, lo! believe in Christ, in whom are promised to you grace, justification, peace, and liberty.” All these things you shall have, if you believe, and shall be without them if you do not believe. For what is impossible for you by all the works of the law, which are many and yet useless, you shall fulfil [sic] in an easy and summary way through faith, because God the Father has made everything to depend on faith….
Now, since these promises of God are words of holiness, truth, righteousness, liberty, and peace, and are full of universal goodness, the soul, which cleaves to them with a firm faith, is so united to them, nay, thoroughly absorbed by them, that it not only partakes in, but is penetrated and saturated by, all their virtues.1
A better rubric for parenting is developing a loving relationship (which does entail teaching obedience) which prayerfully prepares a child’s heart so that it is favorable to receive the good seed of the gospel. Again, teaching obedience is one part of this. Tripp’s emphasis is wrong and his methods are limited—he claims that communication and the rod are the only “biblical” methods of discipline.
Second, on the subject of authority as the right to require obedience, Tripp writes:
Authority best describes the parent’s relationship to the child. (p. xix)
When your child is old enough to resist your directives, he is old enough to be disciplined. When he is resisting you, he is disobeying…. Rebellion can be something as simple as an infant struggling against a diaper change or stiffening out his body when you want him to sit in your lap. (p. 154)
Yes, loving parenting authority does require obedience, but the extent to which Tripp emphasizes this is mistaken. Though he mentions other aspects of servanthood in authority, his main thrust is authority as requiring obedience, and he goes to great lengths to teach parents exactly how to exercise authority in this manner. Tripp’s book makes this the main factor in the parent/child relationship in a manner that is not consistent with Scripture.
For example, God’s relationship with us as His children is characterized by many things other than His right to demand obedience from us. He emphasizes lovingkindness, rejoicing, longsuffering, compassion, and sacrifice. He meets our true needs, helps us to will and to do His good pleasure, has compassion on us, blesses us—and much more. Tripp gives little attention to how these apply to parenting.
We want to model the entire nature of God—not mainly God’s exercise of authority over us to command obedience. Communicating to my child that God can be trusted because He always is acting in wisdom, righteousness and truth toward us is the more godly path to obedience.
Again, Martin Luther understands:
This also is an office of faith: that it honours with the utmost veneration and the highest reputation Him in whom it believes, inasmuch as it holds Him to be truthful and worthy of belief…. What higher credit can we attribute to any one than truth and righteousness, and absolute goodness?
Thus the soul, in firmly believing the promises of God, holds Him to be true and righteous…. In doing this the soul shows itself prepared to do His whole will; in doing this it hallows His name, and gives itself up to be dealt with as it may please God. For it cleaves to His promises, and never doubts that He is true, just, and wise, and will do, dispose, and provide for all things in the best way. Is not such a soul, in this its faith, most obedient to God in all things?
In His dealings with us as His children, God does nothing like reaching down and spanking us each time we disobey. Sin has natural consequences, but God bears them with us, redeems them, and works in the secret places of our hearts transforming our beliefs and understanding about Him. Greater obedience results. His graciousness is not permissive, but it is very patient—training yet not demanding.
2. Does spanking bring a child back into the “circle of blessing”?
Shepherding a Child’s Heart connects spanking with blessing:
The rod returns the child to the place of blessing…. The rod of correction returns him to the place of submission to parents in which God has promised blessing. (p. 115)
The disobedient child has moved outside the place of covenant blessing. The parent must quickly restore the child to the proper relationship with God and the parent. As the child returns to the circle of blessing, things go well for him. He enjoys long life. (p. 135-136)
The Bible does not support Tripp’s teaching that spanking brings a child back into the “circle of blessing.” Spanking is not endued by God with such spiritual power, nor, in fact, is a parent endued with the power to restore the child. Biblically, confession and repentance restore our fellowship with God and others. Let’s cling to this promise: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (NASB, 1 John 1:9). Tripp’s made-up “circle of blessing” teaching goes beyond what God says.
Also, the command to obey was given to the child. Just as husbands are not told to make their wives submit and wives are not told to make their husbands love them, parents are not told to make their children obey.
I taught my daughters to obey—starting when they were small—because I wanted their hearts to be sensitive and trained in the things of God. But teaching obedience is only one facet of my parenting.
3. Has Tedd Tripp correctly interpreted the “rod” passages?
Tripp teaches that the “rod” in Proverbs equals spanking, that spanking is even for young children, that spanking is the God-ordained means of discipline (which parents must obey) and that use of the rod saves a child’s soul from death.
God has commanded the use of the rod in discipline and correction of children. It is not the only thing you do, but it must be used. He has told you that there are needs within your children that require use of the rod. If you are going to rescue your children from death, if you are going to root out the folly that is bound up in their hearts, if you are going to impart wisdom, you must use the rod. (p. SACH, 108)
The rod … is the parent, as God’s representative, undertaking on God’s behalf what God has called him to do. He is not on his own errand, but fulfilling God’s. (p. SACH, 109)
Tripp’s use of Proverbs 23:14 (NIV: “Punish him [a child] with the rod and save his soul from death”) is faulty. Only the grace of God saves us from death and from our sinfulness. It is unbiblical to assert that spanking is God’s “means of grace” for saving children in any way. We diligently teach our children to obey, but spanking them is not salvific in nature. In fact, it is usually unnecessary. There are many godly ways we can teach our children to obey: by our example, by physically helping them fulfill our instructions, by meeting their internal and external needs, by teaching that choices have consequences, etc. God does these things for us as His children.2
The book refers several times to this conversation:
Father: “I must spank you. If I don’t, then I would be disobeying God.” (p. 31)
And again, “Dear, you know what Mommy said and you did not obey Mommy. And now I’ll have to spank you.” (p. 103)
In reference to the mother’s actions, Tripp explains that “the issues of correction transcend the present. All earthly punishment presupposes the great day when destinies are eternally fixed” (p. 103).
The conversation Tripp describes suggests parents who are controlled by a parenting formula rather than by the Holy Spirit: “I must spank you.” And linking earthly punishment to the day of judgment is a distortion of God’s relationship to us. As His child, my eternal destiny was decided already, because He punished His Son, not me.
As His children, He does not consistently punish us when we sin. He trains and disciplines us consistently but He is not obligated to punish us. By teaching parents that they are required to spank, Tripp teaches children (and their parents) that—contrary to the gospel—God does punish us consistently for our sins. Because Christ was punished for us, God is free to use whatever methods of discipline He wishes in order to train us and bring us closer to Himself.
Luther’s words are helpful once again:
When I say, such a Person [Christ], by the wedding-ring of faith, takes a share in the sins, death, and hell of His wife, nay, makes them His own, and deals with them no otherwise than as if they were His, and as if He Himself had sinned…. Thus the believing soul, by the pledge of its faith in Christ, becomes free from all sin, fearless of death, safe from hell, and endowed with the eternal righteousness, life, and salvation of its Husband Christ.
Tripp errs gravely in asserting that spanking is God-ordained, that God’s methods of discipline are limited to communication and spanking, and that parents must spank or they are sinning.
The book also lacks adequate attention to age differences and stages of development—a great aid in child-rearing. On this point, Sally Clarkson writes:
The unfortunate thing is that many parents, in the name of faithful discipline, do not understand the differences between babies or toddlers or young children or even teens with all of their hormones, and they exhibit anger and harshness toward their children, act in a demeaning way, while neglecting the cues of the child at each stage. These parents have no perspective for the children themselves–they use a rule and formula no matter what–and often wonder why their children do not respond to them.3
4. Is Tripp correct that any other methods of parenting are ineffective and disobedient?
Finally, Tripp consistently describes other methods or styles of parenting or discipline as ineffective and undesirable. This is a weakness in his argument because other godly methods of biblical training do exist and have been used effectively for many years.
For example, a daughter of Puritan parents, Mary Fish (1736-1818) writes: “They were very watchful over us in all our ways, and they had such a happy mode of governing that they would even govern us with an eye, and they never used severity with us at all.”4
These summarize several of the major errors in teaching and emphases that I have found in Shepherding a Child’s Heart. The book includes several good teachings, but the overarching errors concern me to the point that I do not recommend the book to parents. Those considering promoting this book and its teachings seriously should give these topics a lot of thought.
Notes
1 All Luther excerpts here are from Concerning Christian Liberty, Part 2.
2 According to Clay Clarkson, Heartfelt Discipline, Prov. 23:14 is probably referring to the use of an actual rod on the back of a young man (p. 56).
3 http://www.itakejoy.com/first-time-obedience-really/
4 Joy Day Buel and Richard J. Buel, Jr. The Way of Duty: A Woman and Her Family in Revolutionary America, p. 7
Anne Sokol Bio
Vitaliy and Anne Sokol are missionaries in Kiev, Ukraine. Anne is a graduate of Bob Jones University. She is a doula, childbirth educator, and midwifery student. She blogs at www.birthinukraine.wordpress.com. They have two daughters, Skyla & Victoria.
- 999 views
[James K] Here is something God said:James, unless you are using a rod the size of your wrist and beating your teen children on their backs (not buttocks, backs), then you are not doing “What God says.” That verse does NOT say “spank.” It is eisegsis to state that it does.
Prov 13:24
The one who will not use the rod hates his son, but the one who loves him disciplines him diligently.
I simply said: Parents who do not spank do not love their children. God said it.
That is exactly what this verse says. I suppose I made it softer than God. I simply said that those parents don’t love their children. God said those parents hate their children.
Anne and others do not believe what God said. They tried (correctly or incorrectly), failed, and instead of following what God said by faith that He knows more, have chosen to use their experience as their defining authority.
Further, theories about vicarious law-keeping are put forth as justification for obedience being a nonissue. Anne is wrong on both accounts.
If obedience was a nonissue, the commands would not be repeated in the NT. The theory of vicarious law-keeping is another issue. Speculative theology isn’t a realm I choose to live in.
from an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, i.e. (literal) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figurative) a clan :- × correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe.
Why you seem to think that means the thickness of my wrist I don’t know. I have seen thick crayons for children, but none the size of my wrist. Please understand, I am not accusing you of just making something up.
God says that if I love my children, I will beat their back.
The word “back” is from the Hebrew “gew” and has this for its meaning:
from (ga’ah) [corresponding to (gab)]; the back; by analogy the middle :- + among, back, body.
You have to understand that I was not the least bit shocked that the word itself by analogy can refer to the middle. Even our current usage of the word “back” can refer to a person’s rear end. I have heard the elderly and the hormone charged men refer to the rear end as back.
It even has the padding to endure being beaten. Imagine that.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
[Charlie] I see how certain statements could sound as if obedience is being downgraded, but I think the real point is that a believer’s relationship to God is multi-faceted, and thus the way a parent models God to a child must be multi-faceted.Completely agree. It’s not clear to me that this is Anne’s point, but it’s a solid one in any case and it certainly has implications for how we parent. We have to be careful not to overplay the “parents are representing God to the child” idea, though. Better, in general, to focus on passages that are about parenting and the responsibilities of children.
So, complete this sentence: “God is our _____.” In order to have a well-rounded view of God, many adjectives, titles, and names that need to go in that blank. (Perhaps, taking a cue from Calvin, we could classify them under the two heads of God our Creator and God our Redeemer.) The different items we insert into the blank will carry with them different modes of relating. “God is our fortress” yields “I take refuge in God.” “God is our sustainer” yields “I nourish myself with God.” We can continue this for a long time.
[James] Here is something God said:James, I believe in spanking when the situation calls for it, but you’re making quite a few leaps here.
Prov 13:24
The one who will not use the rod hates his son, but the one who loves him disciplines him diligently.
I simply said: Parents who do not spank do not love their children. God said it.
That is exactly what this verse says. I suppose I made it softer than God. I simply said that those parents don’t love their children. God said those parents hate their children.
The passage most certainly does not say “Parents who do not spank do not love their children.” The word “parents” isn’t there. The word “spank” isn’t there, etc. My point is that you are interpreting the passage to mean that parents who don’t spank don’t love.
So the question is whether the interpretation is sound. It may very well be. Let’s see if we can make a case for it. Several questions have to be answered.
- What is a Proverb? This matters a great deal because we understand that poetry is different from narrative and both are different from epistle. The form plays a major role in how you interpret (proverbs are extremely compressed, poetic, employ lots of metaphor and simile, etc.)
- What does it mean to “use the rod”? There doesn’t appear to be anything decisive in the lexical info. It’s an instrument of physical pain. It’s unlikely that any metaphorical meaning is less than the literal meaning. But it’s quite likely that it’s more. That is, it’s likely the rod represents more than a stick use to hit. The likelihood increases a whole lot when you look at the second half of the proverb. The “rod” in the first phrase is parallel with “discipline” in the second.
- Under what conditions is the rod to be used? The proverb doesn’t specify how often, for what sort of offenses, etc.
- What do “hate” and “love” mean in this context? Does the proverb refer to the affection we feel for our children? Does it refer to what our action or lack of action accomplishes? (For example, many a parent feels an intense affection for a child and then, foolishly, allows him to eat candy and sugary food and sit around watching TV all the time growing obese. The “feeling” of love is strong. What’s actually accomplished is not loving, though.)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
James, I believe in spanking when the situation calls for it, but you’re making quite a few leaps here.Merely asserting a leap doesn’t make it so as I will show.
The word “parents” isn’t there.Of course it isn’t. However, “the one” is described as possibly hating his son. That can only be a parent. Your objection makes no sense.
The passage most certainly does not say “Parents who do not spank do not love their children.” The word “parents” isn’t there. The word “spank” isn’t there, etc.To be specific, it actually says exactly that. The ones who can discipline their “son” but doesn’t hates him. That can only be a parent.
For whatever reason, you didn’t even attempt to answer the questions that “need” to be answered. It is just endless back and forth, speculation, and the scriptures are treated as good advice rather than authoritatively addressing the issue.
Under what conditions is the rod to be used? The proverb doesn’t specify how often, for what sort of offenses, etc.This verse alone does not answer those questions. Obviously one must consider all the texts on the issue. Whatever conclusion a person comes to though cannot be less than what this verse explicitly says: if you don’t use the rod on your son’s backside, you don’t love him.
The Bible doesn’t tell us how often we must do a lot of things but still commands they be done.
If a parent never spanks, he:
1. Hates his son
2. Fails to obey God
This is all typed with the best motives. I know it is difficult to judge such things in this format. I don’t mean anyone ill. I will just believe God over man here.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
[Aaron BlumerCompletely agree. It’s not clear to me that this is Anne’s point, but it’s a solid one in any case and it certainly has implications for how we parent. We have to be careful not to overplay the “parents are representing God to the child” idea, though. Better, in general, to focus on passages that are about parenting and the responsibilities of children.it’s interesting you say this b/c this is pretty much what tripp does on both counts. he does “focus” on the obedience command to children, the “beat” commands in Proverbs, and the communication instructions in Proverbs, and he uses this as the way you “represent” God and are His agent towards your children as their authority.
I honestly think that a lot of his yrs as school principal (and his personality type) is what wrote this book … . ;)
i kinda disagree with what you are saying, or at least want to ask you about it—the passages that are “about” parenting and the responsibilites of children. when people say this, they often just want to shine the light on “children obey your parents.” What other commands are put into the parent/child relationship? Older women train the younger to “love their children.” There’s an indirect command to mothers. Fathers, don’t provoke your children to anger but bring them up in the discipline/nurture and admonition/instruction of the Lord. Those are commands, not to mention Deut 6, and the general commands given to all believers to love one another and bear one another’s burdens, etc, etc.
I think we put parents in a pressure cooker to teach obedience, like it is the thing their child’s future hangs on, then clamp a few “rod” Proverbs on there, and it’s an authoritarian/spanking mix of parenting.
I’m all for teaching kids obedience. It’s not even a question. But how one portrays God in the whole of the parent/child relationship and while teaching obedience (and God’s expectations) is a major factor in a child’s spiritual formation. (not to mention the freedom God gives us to use other methods than just spanking and speaking). grace and unconditional love is the way God relates to His children. It doens’t mean God excused or ignored our disobedience. It’s the harder road. It means his Son became our servant and obeyed perfectly acceptably on our behalf (b/c we can’t) and now He helps us obey in a relationship with Him, and this help is multi-faceted, it’s not just the rod/punishment and speaking. He actually comes and lives inside us. Makes us connected to Christ, Christ who is in the Father Himself. So somehow we are brought into communion with the Trinity, amazingly enough.
Anyway … :) Also, what I’m trying to point out about obedience is that we have to communicate several things about obedience to our kids—God is satisfied with them b/c of Christ’s obedience applied to them, not b/c of their obedience. This takes so long for any of us to grasp b/c we think so differently as humans. but it is the true foundation of all other “real” obedience. People hardly give this a second thought and consider Christ’s imputed righteousness as a far off thing pretty much valuable only in heaven. But it is what we should ponder over now. It’s the only true source of any meaningful obedience on earth!
So we learn obedience for self-control (so our bodies can do what our spirits want to do to show love to God) and to serve others. My kids serve me and love me as their neighbor when they fulfill God’s command, not to mention that they are also fulfiling God’s first command when they obey me with right faith. But their earthly obedience will always be imperfect—just as mine always will—and I acknowledge that in the way I teach them. The more they understand and value their faith in Christ and all the riches that this gives them now and in eternity, the easier and easier it will be for them to obey me, to obey God …
Anyway, i’m not sure i’m doing a good job of explaining any of this, but …
Edit: in principle, I do agree that the way we teach should be consistent with the gospel. I don’t see how being what we used to call “strict” is at odds with that. This is where the analogy between how we relate to our kids and how God relates to us as His children breaks down. We do not personally have grace to offer as parents. We don’t have substitution at our disposal, etc. The case can be made that our own strictness as parents helps kids understand what God’s grace is worth. You have to take the standard seriously before you can fully appreciate what being forgiven is worth. If we try to bestow grace as parents, we run the risk of teaching cheap grace rather than teaching the gospel.
Of course there is room for mercy. But again, mercy requires a context in which obedience is required and a penalty exists for violating. If we offer mercy 100% of the time as parents, there is not really any obedience required. It’s like a law that says “You are required to pay taxes” but they are never collected and there is never any consequence for violating. In that case there is no law.
The way God sustains His righteous law and grants mercy at the same time is by substitution… so He is “just and justifier” as Romans says. I don’t see how this can work in the parent-child relationship without effectively making obedience optional.
Anne, I have to ask this question to see if I can better grasp what your view is: In your view, when a believer sins, is God in any way displeased?
James… you seem to have completely missed my point. The words of the passages are what they are—they are not other words. They must be interpreted. Differences in interpretation can and do exist among those who are genuinely seeking understanding. It’s one thing to say “You are rejecting what God says” and another thing to say “You are misunderstanding what God says.” The latter gives folks credit for trying without weakening your expression of your own convictions. The former implies that a person can only see it differently by willful turning away from the truth. That’s simply not the case with these passages.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
It’s funny b/c I actually consider myself a pretty strict parent. Kids are to obey. It’s just one inherent part of our relationship. How I go about teaching them this obedience is what is gracious or not… . Repeat that 10 times. Obedience is expected. But how I teach obedience is what is gracious or not.
How can we not have grace to offer our children? Do my kids earn my love from me?
Faith and love are above obedience for us. Don’t we see this all over the Bible? Faith and love lead to maturity and any fruitful obedience.
yes, when we sin God is displeased in a sense (it depends also on our general relationship—am I persisting in hardening my heart? for example Am I still a child in my understanding of some question?). In another sense, does he treat me as my sins deserve?
i think these questions are at the heart of what we are talking about :D
But please don’t set obedience against faith, love, etc. It’s not that I either trust God or that I obey Him. It’s both trust and obey (hey, that would make a good song!). And love, and worship, and…
The same with our children. It’s not that I should either teach them to trust me or to obey me. They should learn to do both.
-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
[Greg Long] Anne, I’m just not sure how anyone could read SaCH or any other Tripp book (especially Instruments in the Redeemer’s Hands) and think that it’s “obedience-only” or even that there is even close to an over-emphasis on obedience. Remember, the sections on correction are only a small part of the book.I believe it is Tripp’s own incongruity regarding trying to reach our childrens’ hearts through consistent, for-every-offense spankings that is the problem here. Anne is not mis-reading: the concepts do not mesh, which is a large portion of Anne’s point.
But please don’t set obedience against faith, love, etc. It’s not that I either trust God or that I obey Him. It’s both trust and obey (hey, that would make a good song!). And love, and worship, and…
The same with our children. It’s not that I should either teach them to trust me or to obey me. They should learn to do both.
Greg, you are reading Tripp and “hearing” his emphasis on teaching and loving and guiding. For this very reason, I suspect that you are *not* hearing his specific words regarding using the rod for EVERY instance of disobedience.
When does a child need a spanking? When you have given a directive that he has heard and is within his capacity to understand and he has not obeyed without challenge, without excuse or without delay, he needs a spanking. If you fail to spank, you fail to take God’s Word seriously. p 149I find very little to object to in half of Tripp’s book. Much of what he says reflects my own thoughts on parenting. However, his insistence on spanking if obedience isn’t immediate, with-a-happy-heart EVERY TIME is extra-biblical and potentially damaging to the relationship. If you do not hear this emphasis/insistence in SACH, then you are filtering as you read it. That is fine, but it is also worthy to note if you are recommending this book to someone who may not filter as you do.
[James K]If God said to beat your childrens’ backs, why are you disobeying and beating their bottoms?
God says that if I love my children, I will beat their back.
The word “back” is from the Hebrew “gew” and has this for its meaning:
from (ga’ah) [corresponding to (gab)]; the back; by analogy the middle :- + among, back, body.
You have to understand that I was not the least bit shocked that the word itself by analogy can refer to the middle. Even our current usage of the word “back” can refer to a person’s rear end. I have heard the elderly and the hormone charged men refer to the rear end as back.
It even has the padding to endure being beaten. Imagine that.
Alternatively, if “back” really means “bottom”, why did the translators use “back”? I can think of only one instance where I’ve heard “back” used in place of “bottom”, and it is a song that would not check… it is very far from common usage. If I gave you a sign and told you to tape it to your back, you would not tape it below your belt-line.
I repeat, if you are interested in doing “what God says” then you would beat their backs. (Not that I think you should, but it was either translated incorrectly or you are tweaking the meaning every bit as much as you are accusing others of doing.)
There are at least three chapters in there about the rod, circle of blessing, how/when to spank. it’s not a majority, but it’s certainly a lot. then the whole intro about “authority” … His language and instructions are well-intentioned but lack … the side of God that came down to help us sinners.
I don’t pit obedience against faith and love. That’s what i’m trying to say, and where Tripp falls terribly short of explaining the whole gospel to kids (and parents). I’m trying to say this over and over and over again. We can never obey God in a worthy way. By faith in Christ, our obedience is perfected! Every day of my life, i can wake up and say: the righteousness of Christ fulfilled the law on my behalf for this day! I believe! Now I am free to truly obey God with His help without any fear of eternal punishment. God makes the tree good; then the good fruits (obedience) come. I will never obey perfectly in this life, but I certainly strive to grow in my faith, be filled up with the understanding of His love, so that I can temper my body to obey Him and serve others.
If I want to run away with that grace and sinsinsin, sure, i will be sorrysorrysorry b/c of the consequences. (And i will add, that God himself may leave me to a certain level of my own sin for a time to instruct me, humble me, etc—Baptist Confession of Faith).
Also, I do agree with what Rachel said.
[Anne Sokol] how you can read SaCH and not see what I am seeing … (go figure!!)Obviously we’re not going to convince each other of our respective perspectives on SaCH, so we’ll agree to disagree.
There are at least three chapters in there about the rod, circle of blessing, how/when to spank. it’s not a majority, but it’s certainly a lot. then the whole intro about “authority” … His language and instructions are well-intentioned but lack … the side of God that came down to help us sinners.
[Anne Sokol] I don’t pit obedience against faith and love. That’s what i’m trying to say, and where Tripp falls terribly short of explaining the whole gospel to kids (and parents). I’m trying to say this over and over and over again. We can never obey God in a worthy way. By faith in Christ, our obedience is perfected! Every day of my life, i can wake up and say: the righteousness of Christ fulfilled the law on my behalf for this day! I believe! Now I am free to truly obey God with His help without any fear of eternal punishment. God makes the tree good; then the good fruits (obedience) come. I will never obey perfectly in this life, but I certainly strive to grow in my faith, be filled up with the understanding of His love, so that I can temper my body to obey Him and serve others.Yes, we have no fear of condemnation because we are in Christ. But I still don’t believe you haven’t taken the full meaning of Hebrews 12 into your parenting philosophy, that God our loving Father chastises us with discipline that is painful.
If I want to run away with that grace and sinsinsin, sure, i will be sorrysorrysorry b/c of the consequences. (And i will add, that God himself may leave me to a certain level of my own sin for a time to instruct me, humble me, etc—Baptist Confession of Faith).
Also, I do agree with what Rachel said.
-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
I believe you that you are not familiar with “back” being used to refer to rear end. Your experience doesn’t shape my interpretation though.
This whole thread has been a perfect illustration of setting up the traditions of men in order to make the commands of God of no effect.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
Discussion