James MacDonald Asks Forgiveness for Unbiblical Discipline of Harvest Bible Chapel Elders
“For many months, we have labored under the awareness that our church discipline of a year ago was a failure in many respects, not the least of which was the complete lack of biblically required restorative component, which wronged the brothers that we were attempting to help” CT
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Mark Driscoll’s friend.
Interesting, too, that for this apology to happen, exposure had to be made public through a website devoted to what happened to these elders and what goes on behind the scenes at Harvest…just like what happened at Mars Hill and Sovereign Grace. Significant numbers had to leave and giving had to slow first…then the apology.
Lead with love, men. Lead with love.
[Wayne Wilson]Mark Driscoll’s friend.
Interesting, too, that for this apology to happen, exposure had to be made public through a website devoted to what happened to these elders and what goes on behind the scenes at Harvest…just like what happened at Mars Hill and Sovereign Grace. Significant numbers had to leave and giving had to slow first…then the apology.
Lead with love, men. Lead with love.
This kind of repentance, whether from people inside or outside of fundamentalism, that comes only after being caught and enduring negative consequences has always troubled me. I know that God uses consequences to bring his people to repentance but one would think that the knowledge of personal sin would prompt the attitude expressed by Paul in Romans 7.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
[Ron Bean]As sad as it is, if the man after God’s own heart had to be confronted before repenting, I don’t think it should surprise us when we (or those around us) fall into the same rebellion.Wayne Wilson wrote:
Mark Driscoll’s friend.
Interesting, too, that for this apology to happen, exposure had to be made public through a website devoted to what happened to these elders and what goes on behind the scenes at Harvest…just like what happened at Mars Hill and Sovereign Grace. Significant numbers had to leave and giving had to slow first…then the apology.
Lead with love, men. Lead with love.
This kind of repentance, whether from people inside or outside of fundamentalism, that comes only after being caught and enduring negative consequences has always troubled me. I know that God uses consequences to bring his people to repentance but one would think that the knowledge of personal sin would prompt the attitude expressed by Paul in Romans 7.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
don’t get caught up in this expression of “repentance”. This is a circus. The clowns got out of control and attendees left with their wallets. They needed the crowd to return, so some of the clowns had to be reigned in. twenty plus years in “ministry” and you only realize after the fact that your behavior was wrong?? Please. This is a PR move. And if it was a legitimate mistake, they only proved their lack of qualification to be elders.
[Chip Van Emmerik]This kind of repentance, whether from people inside or outside of fundamentalism, that comes only after being caught and enduring negative consequences has always troubled me. I know that God uses consequences to bring his people to repentance but one would think that the knowledge of personal sin would prompt the attitude expressed by Paul in Romans 7.
As sad as it is, if the man after God’s own heart had to be confronted before repenting, I don’t think it should surprise us when we (or those around us) fall into the same rebellion.
This is so often true. But the full story reveals that confrontation happened many,many times before this apology was offered over a year later. I agree this is about PR. People are waking up to abusive church leadership, massive hidden salaries, etc. I think it’s a healthy cleansing going on…but it has a long way to go.
I am no fan of MacDonald’s, but I do agree with Chip that if David had to be confronted, we can cut MacDonald some slack in this.
That said, it’s not clear whether Harvest has “gotten religion” on the central issue, which was whether the elders ought to see the real, line by line budget before approving it. Since no sane corporate board would approve a budget without taking a look at things like executive compensation and the like (this is what put Dennis Kozlowski in jail after all), that’s an issue that may still be hanging out there.
Moreover, I am aware of a bunch of other issues hanging out there regarding Harvest that, if the reports in places like Christianity Today and World are accurate, really need to be dealt with, as well as the treatment of about two dozen former staff who have also presented evidence (see “The Elephant’s Debt”) that the personnel issues at Harvest are sadly not limited to a few former elders. So while I must agree with Chip that we ought to “hold our fire” as God did with David, I’ve got to wonder if there is a little bit of “massaging the message” going on here. I hope I am wrong.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
It is important for McDonald to try and get things right and he is getting some help to try and get it right.
Though McDonald is not part of TGC, he is a part of the BCC, which is patterned after the TGC. In fact, McDonald’s name is front and center on their cooperative project, Christ-Centered Biblical Counseling. I will be reviewing the book for SI in the near future. If he is not a fitting counselor or counselee, it would be major damage for the BCC.
Are you talking about these guys?
http://www.biblicalcounselingcenter.org/blog/page/2/
To hop on a soapbox that I’ve worn well, I have to admit some unease at a megachurch pastor being front & center in terms of counseling. Counseling requires intimacy, which requires time, which a megachurch pastor is going to have trouble giving to all of those sheep. Again, love to be wrong on this, but apart from blessed exceptions, I really don’t see how it gets done.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Bert Perry]Are you talking about these guys?
http://www.biblicalcounselingcenter.org/blog/page/2/
To hop on a soapbox that I’ve worn well, I have to admit some unease at a megachurch pastor being front & center in terms of counseling. Counseling requires intimacy, which requires time, which a megachurch pastor is going to have trouble giving to all of those sheep. Again, love to be wrong on this, but apart from blessed exceptions, I really don’t see how it gets done.
I find it interesting that this ministry is staffed and I believe led by one of the exiting elders and some of his family.
Paul, I’m not seeing that—Elephant’s Debt names these men as departed elders from HBC;
Scott Phelps, Dan Marquart, Barry Slabaugh, Russ Barney, Fred Agase.
Am I missing something? Not seeing any of those guys anywhere near the link I provided. (maybe give me a link?)
Update: I did find that a gentleman named Allchin is associated with BCC, and he used to be an elder at HBC. I still don’t see evidence of HBC or MacDonald in the current site, though.
Agreed 100% with Jay about there being numerous other examples of why one ought to be careful around Harvest. One interesting thing I saw in Tim Challies’ review of “Vertical Church” was that MacDonald affirmed what I thought had generally been a cheap shot about modern church music—that it is theologically shallow. At least in Harvest’s world, that’s a feature, not a bug. I’m having trouble reconciling that with the Psalms, to put it mildly.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
This is the same guy that wanted to bring Jakes, Driscoll, and others together in the Elephant Room 2 thing from a couple years ago.
I hope the guy is genuinely sorry and made the situation right, because that kind of behavior would be pleasing to God. I’d be more worried, though, about his personal associations and the doctrine that he teaches before I’d be concerned about whether or not he was ‘repentant enough’.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Bert Perry]Paul, I’m not seeing that—Elephant’s Debt names these men as departed elders from HBC;
Scott Phelps, Dan Marquart, Barry Slabaugh, Russ Barney, Fred Agase.
Am I missing something? Not seeing any of those guys anywhere near the link I provided. (maybe give me a link?)
Update: I did find that a gentleman named Allchin is associated with BCC, and he used to be an elder at HBC. I still don’t see evidence of HBC or MacDonald in the current site, though.
Agreed 100% with Jay about there being numerous other examples of why one ought to be careful around Harvest. One interesting thing I saw in Tim Challies’ review of “Vertical Church” was that MacDonald affirmed what I thought had generally been a cheap shot about modern church music—that it is theologically shallow. At least in Harvest’s world, that’s a feature, not a bug. I’m having trouble reconciling that with the Psalms, to put it mildly.
Correct Bert, no overlap with either HBC or MacDonald. As you can see Ron Allchin is associated with both the broader group Biblical Counseling Coalition and his own practice Biblical Counseling Center. Just knew Allchin had been part of of HBC for more many years.
http://biblicalcounselingcoalition.org/
McDonald is listed as the “general editor” of their book:
http://biblicalcounselingcoalition.org/books/review/christ-centered-bib…
It is, I think, aimed at being a college textbook on the subject of Christian counseling..
It’s important to note the timing of this:
MacDonald recently resigned from the advisory board of Mars Hill Church, shortly before nine pastors asked Mark Driscoll to step aside and submit to elder authority. Christianity Today
MacDonald was very aware of the goings on at Mars Hill/Driscoll. Mars Hill attendance is down from 12K to 8K. They had to lay off 30-40% of their staff and close some churches. Both men behaved like bullies in outing “divisive” elders. Maybe Mark Driscoll’s saga was hitting a little too close to home and he was realizing what has been happening to Driscoll would befall him and his HBC empire if he did not take drastic measures. Time will tell how genuine this repentance is. I pray that MacDonald will walk in integrity and transparency, but the one common ground that really concerns me is both men built $$ empires.
[Julie Anne]It’s important to note the timing of this:
MacDonald recently resigned from the advisory board of Mars Hill Church, shortly before nine pastors asked Mark Driscoll to step aside and submit to elder authority. Christianity Today
MacDonald was very aware of the goings on at Mars Hill/Driscoll. Mars Hill attendance is down from 12K to 8K. They had to lay off 30-40% of their staff and close some churches. Both men behaved like bullies in outing “divisive” elders. Maybe Mark Driscoll’s saga was hitting a little too close to home and he was realizing what has been happening to Driscoll would befall him and his HBC empire if he did not take drastic measures. Time will tell how genuine this repentance is. I pray that MacDonald will walk in integrity and transparency, but the one common ground that really concerns me is both men built $$ empires.
Yes, I think Julie Anne is on to something. The timing and the connections are all there. I agree completely with her prayer and her concern. The leadership styles of Driscoll and MacDonald are very similar, as is the secrecy, centralized power, and big money.
Discussion