"To place Nicene orthodoxy in the category of over-scrupulous doctrinal precisianism is, in effect, to declare the entire church... from 381 to the present day to be wrong-headed."
- 9 views
[Trueman] Of course, many Christian believers have a shaky grasp of Trinitarianism; it is a difficult theological area and it is therefore important that those who hold teaching office do grasp this area so that they can bring their members on to maturity in this matter. Thus, for an evangelical leader to argue that creedal developments on Trinitarianism are of little importance is a fascinating glimpse into the doctrinal make-up of what constitutes contemporary evangelical leadership in the United States…
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I am new to James MacDonald, having begun listening to him on and off within the past year. He is definitely a different type of communicator, representing a different slant on evangelicalism (by a former fundamentalist). Personally, I still prefer the “old school” style of John MacArthur, D. James Kennedy, et al. But MacDonald offers a nice change of pace from a different type of voice.
I do have a friend from college who attends Harvest Bible Chapel, and I guess I got started by seeing MacDonald in a Q&A session with MacArthur.
I have no previous experience with “The Elephant Room,” but it is obvious from reading about it that this is not just a regular Bible conference. If I were personally planning an event, I would not think of inviting Dever — say nothing of Jakes or, heaven forbid, Driscoll. However, I do understand that, again, this seems to be more of a roundtable for broad evangelicalism than a teaching conference where everyone present is on the same page. Whether that is of value or not is a separate question — but at least I think we should take note of the type of event it is.
Taken in context of MacDonald’s style, I am also not sure that his http://jamesmacdonald.com/blog/?p=9055] controversial statement is meant to be his definitive view of the Trinity. Again, it is not one that I would have written, but I think maybe there should be a word of caution here before everyone freaks out.
I would like to watch this event and see what transpires before jumping to final conclusions about either it or MacDonald.
I do have a friend from college who attends Harvest Bible Chapel, and I guess I got started by seeing MacDonald in a Q&A session with MacArthur.
I have no previous experience with “The Elephant Room,” but it is obvious from reading about it that this is not just a regular Bible conference. If I were personally planning an event, I would not think of inviting Dever — say nothing of Jakes or, heaven forbid, Driscoll. However, I do understand that, again, this seems to be more of a roundtable for broad evangelicalism than a teaching conference where everyone present is on the same page. Whether that is of value or not is a separate question — but at least I think we should take note of the type of event it is.
Taken in context of MacDonald’s style, I am also not sure that his http://jamesmacdonald.com/blog/?p=9055] controversial statement is meant to be his definitive view of the Trinity. Again, it is not one that I would have written, but I think maybe there should be a word of caution here before everyone freaks out.
I would like to watch this event and see what transpires before jumping to final conclusions about either it or MacDonald.
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
Paul,
Care to expand on your views on Dever?
Care to expand on your views on Dever?
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
[Chip Van Emmerik] Paul,I like and respect Dever and enjoy listening to him — it is just that if I were in charge of any type of conference or event, the thought would probably never even cross my mind to invite him. He comes from a completely different denominational and theological perspective than the circles I run in. Not that he is in the same group as Jakes or Driscoll, I just would not think of him.
Care to expand on your views on Dever?
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
Oh, thanks Paul.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
[Paul J. Scharf][Chip Van Emmerik] Paul,I like and respect Dever and enjoy listening to him — it is just that if I were in charge of any type of conference or event, the thought would probably never even cross my mind to invite him. He comes from a completely different denominational and theological perspective than the circles I run in. Not that he is in the same group as Jakes or Driscoll, I just would not think of him.
Care to expand on your views on Dever?
Paul, actually Dever would be the one person in the Elephant Room event that would be closest to our our perspective on most things.
-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
[Greg Long]Thanks Greg,[Paul J. Scharf][Chip Van Emmerik] Paul,I like and respect Dever and enjoy listening to him — it is just that if I were in charge of any type of conference or event, the thought would probably never even cross my mind to invite him. He comes from a completely different denominational and theological perspective than the circles I run in. Not that he is in the same group as Jakes or Driscoll, I just would not think of him.
Care to expand on your views on Dever?
Paul, actually Dever would be the one person in the Elephant Room event that would be closest to our our perspective on most things.
Is he closer than MacDonald?
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
…. suggest that Nicene Christianity is nitpicky and we need to cut each other slack on the nature of the Trinity.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Aaron Blumer]…. suggest that Nicene Christianity is nitpicky and we need to cut each other slack on the nature of the Trinity.I agree wholeheartedly with you and Dever on that, Aaron. I was just wondering if that is what MacDonald is really doing… hoping it is not. I have more respect for MacDonald than to think, at first glance, that is what is going on.
Also hoping he is bringing Driscoll and Jakes in to confront them, not to legitimize their errors.
Has anyone seen last year’s session so we can know more about how this works? Is it available anywhere?
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
Having seen most of Elephant Room 1, I think it’s a good project. There is no hint that this is one of those times of “shared platforms” that fundamentalists tend to not like. The point is to talk about disagreement and there have been moments of sharp disagreement in the first Elephant Room. So I don’t have a problem with Dever and TD Jakes talking live about differences. What I’m hoping for is that every discussions that Dever and others have with Jakes (if they happen) that the true evangelicals won’t let go of the Trinity issue. All other discussion is superfulous if you’re talking to a heritic.
If I were MacDonald I would never have invited Jakes, but if he was going to invite him, he shouldn’t defend him without knowing more of his facts. I would just invite him and let him stand or fall on his own merits. I don’t care for the theological morass MacDonald has created for himself of defending loosey-goosey views of TD Jakes on the one hand, and telling us a few months ago that “congregational church government is from Satan.” Ironically, it seems he took that latter blog post down only to use the same link for his TD Jakes defense. MacDonald seems to sell himself as both a welcoming, loving evangelical pastor, and someone with a lot of discernment. I just don’t see it.
See the links and discussion for the congregationalism discussion here.
http://sharperiron.org/filings/6-10-11/19199
Also see a great recap of Oneness Pentecostalism and Jakes here
http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/2011/09/28/oneness-pentecostalism-an-an…
One interesting thing for fundamentalists to watch is how the Gospel Coalition is handling this. James MacDonald is a council member, and yet the bloggers of TGC are all crying foul, if nicely and indirectly. Here is a pretty clear instance of an evangelical appearing to give a false teacher a break.
If I were MacDonald I would never have invited Jakes, but if he was going to invite him, he shouldn’t defend him without knowing more of his facts. I would just invite him and let him stand or fall on his own merits. I don’t care for the theological morass MacDonald has created for himself of defending loosey-goosey views of TD Jakes on the one hand, and telling us a few months ago that “congregational church government is from Satan.” Ironically, it seems he took that latter blog post down only to use the same link for his TD Jakes defense. MacDonald seems to sell himself as both a welcoming, loving evangelical pastor, and someone with a lot of discernment. I just don’t see it.
See the links and discussion for the congregationalism discussion here.
http://sharperiron.org/filings/6-10-11/19199
Also see a great recap of Oneness Pentecostalism and Jakes here
http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/2011/09/28/oneness-pentecostalism-an-an…
One interesting thing for fundamentalists to watch is how the Gospel Coalition is handling this. James MacDonald is a council member, and yet the bloggers of TGC are all crying foul, if nicely and indirectly. Here is a pretty clear instance of an evangelical appearing to give a false teacher a break.
A great message on the Trinity featured today by Dr. Kennedy…
http://www.truthinaction.org/index.php/truth-that-transforms?tab=radio
http://www.truthinaction.org/index.php/truth-that-transforms?tab=radio
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
[Shaynus] I don’t care for the theological morass MacDonald has created for himself of defending loosey-goosey views of TD Jakes on the one hand, and telling us a few months ago that “congregational church government is from Satan.”Are there any more ties between MacDonald and Driscoll?
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
[Paul J. Scharf]They jointly took a planeload of medical supplies down to Haiti after the earthquake. I can’t fault either one for that.[Shaynus] I don’t care for the theological morass MacDonald has created for himself of defending loosey-goosey views of TD Jakes on the one hand, and telling us a few months ago that “congregational church government is from Satan.”Are there any more ties between MacDonald and Driscoll?
Carl Trueman is not only gifted in his communication but perspicacious in his approach to most things of which I have read regarding his writings. He knows where the strike zone is and does not communicate with vagueness or loose thinking. MacDonald…on the other hand.
[Shaynus]They formed an organization called http://churcheshelpingchurches.com/ Churches Helping Churches after the Haiti earthquake.[Paul J. Scharf]They jointly took a planeload of medical supplies down to Haiti after the earthquake. I can’t fault either one for that.[Shaynus] I don’t care for the theological morass MacDonald has created for himself of defending loosey-goosey views of TD Jakes on the one hand, and telling us a few months ago that “congregational church government is from Satan.”Are there any more ties between MacDonald and Driscoll?
p.s. I submitted my resume when they were looking for an Exec Dir.
CanJAmerican - my blog
CanJAmerican - my twitter
whitejumaycan - my youtube
Discussion