Joining the AARP: Right or Wrong?

Wrong
25% (2 votes)
Right
0% (0 votes)
Meh
75% (6 votes)
Total votes: 8
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There are 62 Comments

Greg Long's picture

Speaking of statements, this was your first statement in this thread:

I did not realize it was potentially a sin to join an organization because they supported Obamacare. I had no idea that true Christians could not support an attempt to provide health care to needy people.

No one said it was a "sin" to join the AARP. No one said that "true Christians" don't join the AARP or support Obamacare. Mark shared his personal opinion that he wouldn't join AARP for the reasons he cited, and didn't think Jim should either, but he never said it was a "sin" to do so or that "true Christians" wouldn't do so.

Then when confronted with what a ridiculous summary of Obamacare this was, you said you were only interested in facts, not opinions. When Bert wrote a lengthy post with links to his sources, you dismissed it yet presented no alternative arguments or sources.

If all you are asking for is that we note that some Christians support Obamacare and that supporting Obamacare shouldn't be a test of true Christianity...so noted. I really don't see anyone arguing against that, however.

-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)

Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA

Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University

Bert Perry's picture

If it is "dogmatic" to quote sources and defend points of fact, let us all be so dogmatic. By the way, my ultimate sources about AARP support of prenatal infanticide and HIDA are....within the AARP.  So I would be surprised, to say the least, to find any expert who could successfully contradict that!

And if you want to defer to experts, you are welcome to....say....actually cite some of them. 

 

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

GregH's picture

Bert Perry wrote:

If it is "dogmatic" to quote sources and defend points of fact, let us all be so dogmatic. By the way, my ultimate sources about AARP support of prenatal infanticide and HIDA are....within the AARP.  So I would be surprised, to say the least, to find any expert who could successfully contradict that!

And if you want to defer to experts, you are welcome to....say....actually cite some of them. 

 

Bert, pardon me for turning you down in choosing not to debate your views on health care, economics, welfare, and all other areas you consider yourself knowledgeable in. I don't have time to invest in debating the opinions of everyone that keeps up with the news. I have made my point over and over and I fear I am wasting my time repeating myself.

dcbii's picture

EditorModerator

GregH,

To me it sounds a little like you are uninterested in spending the time to try to refute views -- you just want to write off those holding them as completely uninformed drones commenting on talk radio.  I agree with Greg Long that your first comment tried to portray those opposed to Obamacare as not supportive of needy people.  Talk about a straw man.  You did write "attempt," but by definition, an attempt is not necessarily worthy of support.  Good intentions are not enough.

None of us can ever have all the facts.  That doesn't mean we can't find enough information to have a valid opinion or to stand on it.

Dave Barnhart

GregH's picture

dcbii wrote:

GregH,

To me it sounds a little like you are uninterested in spending the time to try to refute views -- you just want to write off those holding them as completely uninformed drones commenting on talk radio.  I agree with Greg Long that your first comment tried to portray those opposed to Obamacare as not supportive of needy people.  Talk about a straw man.  You did write "attempt," but by definition, an attempt is not necessarily worthy of support.  Good intentions are not enough.

None of us can ever have all the facts.  That doesn't mean we can't find enough information to have a valid opinion or to stand on it.

Well yes, I am indeed uninterested in debating Bert's opinions on energy, etc because that was not my original point and I am not sure why his opinions are worth a lot of investment. Maybe he is qualified to speak on those things but to date, his qualifications brought forward are that he reads WSJ and the NYT. My original point was simply that it is absurd to try to force all Christians to toe the conservative political line. For example, there actually are Christians who see universal health care as a moral thing and Bert and company might be interested to know that they would consider him immoral for objecting to it.

I do find the post modernism that is so prevalent in these discussions (where anyone that reads a newspaper is qualified to be dogmatic on the most complex of issues) to be very distasteful. I am not going to say I am an expert on those areas either but I am at least able to recognize the complexity and admit what I don't know. That is the first step of learning: knowing what you don't know. 

In regards to the perceived strawman regarding my initial post, I understand why you took it that way but that was not my intent. My intent was to suggest that there are Christians who just flat out feel that taking care of needy people with health care is a noble thing. I fall into that boat though I am not going to claim that Obamacare is the perfect solution.

 

Bert Perry's picture

It's worth noting that not only is "it's about healthcare for the poor" not only a strawman, misrepresenting conservative arguments against Obamacare, but it's also false.  The poor already had healthcare through Medicaid, and Obamacare doesn't change that.  What it primarily does is to provide incentives and penalties for the middle class to get insurance to Mr. Obama's taste whether they wanted that product or not.  This was the issue of the first Supreme Court case where John Roberts rescued the "Health Insurance Deform Act"; can the government impel people to purchase a product they don't want via a fine, or tax.

And I've got to admit that I really don't see what's all that complex about the AARP and HIDA supporting abortion and euthanasia.  They clearly do--I documented that--and I would at least hope that the thought of butchered innocents would clear our heads from the fog of political nuance.  Do we protect innocent life, or do we not?

Same thing, really, with the 3:1 rule's pillaging of the poorer by the richer, the web of deceit and bribery used to get HIDA passed, and for that matter the web of executive orders by which President Obama spared his buddies the burden of HIDA.  Christians ought to be united against this kind of nonsense--there are places where nuance is appropriate, but this is not one of them.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

GregH's picture

Bert, honestly, in spite of your bluster and dogmatism, I don't think you know much about the health care crisis. Mark me down as one Christian who is proudly not united with you against that "nonsense." 

Greg Long's picture

But once again you have not offered any actual argumentation or documentation to disprove Bert's points.

-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)

Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA

Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University

Bert Perry's picture

Greg H, your bluster is amusing, somewhat depressing, but not edifying at all.  I posted a truth claim; that the truly poor were already covered by Medicaid, and therefore the truly needy did not have their condition materially improved by the passage of the "Health Insurance Deform Act".  I would suggest that you might, say, look it up and learn if this is indeed true.  

If it is, then what you have been repeating ad nauseam is yet another of the lies that were used to pass HIDA, and you have confirmed by your own testimony my 5th objection that all Christians ought to have to Obamacare; the series of lies ("if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor, period") and bribes used to pass it.  You've been repeating one of those lies.

Really, what would our forefathers in faith--the ones who shut down the Circus Maximus and ended the practice of postnatal infanticide (Rome's form of abortion)--say to us about this matter?   They certainly didn't mince any words about the atrocities they knew of!

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

GregH's picture

Bert Perry wrote:

Greg H, your bluster is amusing, somewhat depressing, but not edifying at all.  I posted a truth claim; that the truly poor were already covered by Medicaid, and therefore the truly needy did not have their condition materially improved by the passage of the "Health Insurance Deform Act".  I would suggest that you might, say, look it up and learn if this is indeed true.  

If it is, then what you have been repeating ad nauseam is yet another of the lies that were used to pass HIDA, and you have confirmed by your own testimony my 5th objection that all Christians ought to have to Obamacare; the series of lies ("if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor, period") and bribes used to pass it.  You've been repeating one of those lies.

Really, what would our forefathers in faith--the ones who shut down the Circus Maximus and ended the practice of postnatal infanticide (Rome's form of abortion)--say to us about this matter?   They certainly didn't mince any words about the atrocities they knew of!

Bert, I think I won't do any research on Medicaid right now. I spent several years of my life working on the administration of Medicaid at the state level. I know a great deal about health care not only from that angle but from others which I will not discuss here. I am glad you are an expert after reading some stuff on the Internet but again, I am not interested in debating your opinions or the various spin you put forward. I will say this: I will not disagree with you that the abortion coverage is sinful. However, all lives are valuable, not just babies and providing insurance to those who need it is valuing life. In other words, I am saying this is more complex than you want to make it. You don't really know enough to understand the complexities and that is OK though it does make your dogmatism (albeit predictable) more annoying.

I do have a question for you: have you ever had to buy insurance yourself on the open market or has it always been provided to you via the government, a job, etc?

Bert Perry's picture

Of course I've gotten my own insurance, multiple times.  I'm very grateful as well that "Glitch girl" (the HIDA portal) wasn't involved, and in general the private market takes much better care of me than does the government.  I can, after all, stop doing business with a company that mistreats me.  No such luck with the government unless I emigrate somewhere.

And honestly, if indeed you believe that it is hugely complex that the AARP has been caught supporting abortion, euthanasia, Obamacare, and Planned Parenthood, you ought to explain why it is so instead of simply appealing to your own authority without evidence. 

Moreover, if indeed you have been involved in Medicaid, you should have known that Obamacare does bupkus for the poor.  Why did you repeat the lie, Greg?  What kind of testimony is that? 

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

GregH's picture

I apologize profusely for lying Bert. Now I think I will move on. You win. 

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