How serious is the clergy shortage in conservative churches?

I really don’t know enough to say other than an anecdotal comment. A friend graduated with a masters degree from a conservative (baptist) seminary and had a hard time finding a position. Premillennialism also seems to be waning in the US which might make it hard to find pastors.
Edit: not equating premillennialism with conservatism. Only pointing out that among conservatives, a smaller amount seem to be premil.

This was before the pandemic so that might not be a good representation.

Yes that’s what I meant to say. The majority of graduates are probably covenantal so it may be difficult to find a dispensational pastor.

Supply and demand disconnect:

• There are more seminary graduates looking for positions than open pulpits
• Additionally in fundy circles, many of the open pulpit positions seriously underpay a man

Don’t think so.

All the stuff I read suggests otherwise, and perhaps among more conservative to fundamentalist churches the pickings are slimmer. The most conservative will tend to have more stringent requirements.

I haven’t voted in your poll, I can’t decide whether the problem is short term or long term. The Lord is able to raise up of these stones…

Not in a position to hire a pastor or anything like that, but almost every pastor I know of is either making plans to leave the ministry, has a backup plan if they are forced out, or is seriously considering resigning. Right or wrong, 2016 seems to be the year that many churches cracked over politics and the “social justice” threat and many pastors are simply burned out and ready to bail. It’s not like the situation will improving soon, either.

Personally, I think God is getting ready to purge the visible church in a huge way, with judgment on America coming swiftly after that. I’m sure that there are more men out there who will find their way to pulpits, but I think there’s going to be a huge gap between supply and demand and that churches will increasingly become more and more demanding for less and less pay. So I am extremely pessimistic about the future.

I’ve been on search committees for the past few years, and it’s real. My take is that too many churches have looked past real moral issues on the part of incumbent pastors, paid too many pastors poorly, and have downgraded academic training to the point that many have said “the heck with it” and have cast their lot with the Reformed and Reformed-leaning.

Regarding those coming from conservative Baptist seminaries not finding positions, I’ve seen a couple of examples of that as well. The guy I’m thinking of hit all the buttons—dispensational, MDIV, conservative in practice and theology, loved teaching—but there was a je ne sais quoi where churches were simply saying “I’ll pass” on him.

One thing that may be involved (cue Julie Roys and the travails of Hillsong, Harvest, and the like) is that many of us have become very enamored of the “megachurch” model and the importance of personal magnetism. Guys like the Apostle Paul (2 Cor. 10:10) don’t do well in that light. And quite frankly, that should sober us.

You increasingly gotta be bi-vocational, because churches are getting smaller and that isn’t going to change. That isn’t an attractive proposition to young guys. Even if you aren’t bi-vocational, if your church can’t do much else because it’s budget is basically you and your family, it makes you think.

I don’t like being bi-vocational. But, it’s reality. The Christian gloss has left America. Reality says churches will have to attract and be willing to consider a bi-vocational pastor or close and/or limp along in a crippled state with perpetual interims.

Don’t pine for days that are gone, or wax nostalgic about something that’s not coming back. Embrace reality in this respect, and pump the brakes on idealism.

“The church is doomed”

“It’s not coming back”

etc.

Who are we serving? Who made you a prophet?

From the human perspective, there are many things that look bleak. Last I knew, God was still in charge. He will do what he wants to do. Just serve him and quit the belly-aching.

My experience looking for an associate in 2019 is that there was no shortage. We advertised widely and found a good man within one month. We did Zoom interviews and had him out shortly thereafter.

But, times change. Three years is a long time.

Our Pulpits Are Full of Empty Preachers | Christianity Today
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2022/may-june/great-resignation-pu…

I recently made the decision to begin the transition from f/t corporate employment to f/t pastoral ministry. This year, I’m bi-vocational. Next year, Lord willing, I’ll be in f/t pastoral ministry.

This transition means I’ll need to find an insurance plan on the healthcare exchange for my family’s healthcare needs. It means a significant pay cut (>$100K pay reduction). It means I’ll no longer have money available to contribute to my retirement plan. It means my family will need to relocate and my youngest will need to attend the last two years of high school at a new school. It means my wife will have to get at least a part-time job.

Why did I choose to pursue this f/t pastoral opportunity? I believe God orchestrated the events of my life and brought me to a point where I needed to decide whether I was going to truly trust him or just say I trusted him. I know God has called me to pastoral ministry (i initially thought it was going to be bi-vocational ministry). My gifting and calling have been repeatedly affirmed by God’s people. What was keeping me from f/t pastoral ministry was fear.

Thankfully, God has abundantly provided for my family over the last 17 years through my corporate job, and I will begin my f/t pastorate with significant retirement savings, a good savings / emergency fund, and a generally healthy family. We have no debt other than our mortgage. We are used to living well below our means.

That said, before my wife and I agreed to make this transition, the church had been looking for a pastor for nearly four years without much luck. It’s a small-town SBC church that averages 90-120 people on Sunday, and the pastor was looking to retire after serving there for nearly 30 years (He just turned 70).

Here were some of the headwinds that I had to consider before saying yes to this f/t opportunity:

1. Assessing financial feasibility based on a significantly reduced salary
2. Gaining alignment with my wife and having her full support
3. Understanding the various impacts to our family and lifestyle
4. Navigating the current issues w/in the SBC (e.g. clergy sexual abuse, politics, and CRT)
5. Wanting to transition the church away from a senior pastor model to a true elder plurality model

That’s wonderful news Tom! May the Lord richly bless you and your family there.

[josh p]

That’s wonderful news Tom! May the Lord richly bless you and your family there.

Thanks, Josh. This has certainly been a significant step of faith for both my wife and me.

As I think about the current evangelical landscape, I can think of several things that may be keeping young men from pursuing / continuing in pastoral ministry:

1. Significant debt. I just met a young man and his wife who graduated from Boyce College several years ago. He went there to go into pastoral ministry, but between he and his wife they have a lot of debt (student and consumer debt). They decided to get jobs instead of going into full-time ministry to pay off their debts.
2. Low pay and few benefits. There’s no way around it. If you pastor the average-sized church (~100) or less, your pay and benefits will most likely be meager compared to working in almost any other profession. Further, there is little chance your pay and benefits will increase that much unless the church grows numerically.
3. Scandals w/in evangelicalism. Who wants to go into pastoral ministry when it seems there is a new pastoral spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, or financial scandal every other month within (conservative) evangelicalism? It’s discouraging as a pastor / elder, because I know these scandals affect how the watching world sees Christianity, the church, and me as a pastor.
4. Lack of Faithful Role Models. Kind of related to #3 … How the mighty have fallen. I think I remember reading that the average tenure of a pastor is 5 years. When churches churn through pastors that quickly (or pastors churn through churches that quickly), there really are no faithful role models for young men to emulate or mentors for young men aspiring to be a pastor.
5. Megachurch dreams. Some guys may dream about being a church planter who builds the next megachurch and who gets invited to speak at all the cool conferences. These guys see pastoral ministry as a way to showcase their “vision” and their giftedness and to build a ministry around a ceo / pastor model. When their church doesn’t experience the growth they expect or they run into significant opposition to their “vision” or leadership, they head toward the exit. These guys are hirelings and should go into used car sales instead of shepherding a church.
6. Fear of failure. This is what kept me from seriously pursing f/t pastoral ministry until Fall of 2020. Did I have the gifting, calling, and temperament to successfully navigate all the demands and craziness that occur in pastoral ministry. As long as I remained bi-vocational, I knew my livelihood wasn’t on the line if I failed.
7. Disobedience. I struggled with this one too. When God opens a door to pastoral ministry and asks you to trust his leading, will you? Or, will you find every excuse not to?

Well-said! I’m actually being ordained in my church on Sunday. The Lord has brought me through a lot to get me to this point. I am so incredibly thankful to our merciful Lord for putting me into pastoral ministry!

That was Tom actually.

My disappointment is how many churches are closed off to the idea of an older person becoming a first time pastor who didn’t go through the teen youth group->bible college->youth pastor->senior pastor pathway. And how many churches looking for pastors have asked what my debt is and whether my wife works, but never asked my beliefs, or whether I can read Greek and Hebrew…

When I got saved 30 years ago as a 19 year old I felt like an outsider because I had not come up in the church youth group… that feeling has never left.

[Mark_Smith]

My disappointment is how many churches are closed off to the idea of an older person becoming a first time pastor who didn’t go through the teen youth group->bible college->youth pastor->senior pastor pathway. And how many churches looking for pastors have asked what my debt is and whether my wife works, but never asked my beliefs, or whether I can read Greek and Hebrew…

Mark, my experience in this is limited to a single time serving on a pastoral search committee just under 11 years ago. We definitely asked lots of questions about each candidate’s education and beliefs, which included Greek & Hebrew experience (though ability to do all their Bible reading from the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts would certainly not have been a requirement), as well as how they fit into both yesterday’s and today’s versions of fundamentalism.

We also asked a number of personal questions. If the wife worked another job, that certainly would not have been a disqualifying factor, but how the candidate answered that question would give us insight into how that circumstance would impact his ability to fulfill the job requirements. Although we never asked anyone directly about debt, we told each candidate who got to a certain stage that we would do a full background check, so they knew what we would find out.

I can say that I could not have cared less how every aspect of path the candidate traveled to reach their current situation met the “fundamentalist preacher ideal path.” I would say age and experience (whether as a previous assistant or senior pastor) would certainly be both interesting and relevant to his taking a senior pastor position of a church that had at that time about 100-120 members. Of course, having other jobs that required leading and dealing with people would be relevant as well.

I’m not saying we would have easily hired someone who had never been a pastor before, but I can say we would have considered each candidate’s situation independently, but also with knowledge that the candidate was coming in to leading an established church, and we would want to know if they are up to it. I would say that’s only expected. I don’t see that as much different from your university hiring a brand new PhD (even one with lots of other experience) as a full professor before being assistant or associate. There are reasons that job experience matters.

As to age, it’s not the most important factor, but when a man is looking to come be a full pastor at an established church, it’s not unreasonable to want someone who has the necessary energy and vision to lead well and is not on the downhill side of his career path (or maybe I should say “working years” rather than career path).

Ed, you hit the nail on the head. I don’t know anyone very well. That’s my problem. With every pastor I know, there is some difference between me and them that ruins it for a recommendation. With a lot of local churches, its KJV bible use (I don’t use it and will not use it). For others I think the PhD in physics is a deal breaker. Its like an arrest record… most don’t even want to deal with it. Then the 3rd group is the whole Calvinism vs. “free will.” Turns out the area I live in is 95% ardent “free will” whereas I “lean” Calvinist. It is a serious deal breaker. These 3 things are just from each of the elders of the church I formerly attended!

Dave, your search team seems reasonable. Most aren’t. I’m talking small churches here. 50 people or less. Won’t even return my call and I know from the SBC regional director that they received only a handful of applications. In one case I wrote a letter to the church asking why I was not considered. They replied with a thank you for applying generic letter. The person they did choose died 6 months later. They went 3 years without a pastor following that and wouldn’t even return my call. I can give 5 other examples like this.

I guess its the “will of God” and I move on.

Mark,

These were the qualities that my church wanted in their next pastor (besides the biblical character qualifications):

• A man who prioritizes ministry to his wife and family.
• A man who faithfully exposits God’s Word. One who is able to clearly and effectively communicate in public speaking, as well as in personal conversation.
• A man who embraces pastoral ministry and displays a shepherd’s heart. One who is characterized by selfless love for others.
• A man who is missions minded. One who is knowledgeable and supportive of Southern Baptist mission work.
• A man who holds to the doctrines of grace, and the five SOLAs of the Reformation. One who possesses sound, biblical theology.
• A man who is committed to biblical spiritual church growth.
• A man of courage and integrity. One who has a track record of stability, steadfastness, and perseverance.
• A man of prayer.

After seeing three senior pastors fail at my former church, I’m not sure what qualifications are necessary to be a successful pastor. I have a BA in English, an MBA, and an MDiv. My ministry experience includes being a Sunday school teacher, small group leader, deacon, elder, and children’s ministry director. My corporate experience includes being a director and leading a team of 6 f/t direct reports. I’ve been working at the same employer for the past 17 years in increasing levels of responsibility and leadership. These guys had all the right ministry credentials, theological education, and pastoral experience. Two of these men were extremely gifted preachers. The other was a gifted teacher. However, all three failed: two failed morally and the other failed because of poor leadership.

It seems many churches look for the dynamic and gifted guy. What I have learned is that you really want the faithful guy. But, the faithful guy isn’t the one sending out resumes.

[Mark_Smith]

With a lot of local churches, its KJV bible use (I don’t use it and will not use it). For others I think the PhD in physics is a deal breaker. Its like an arrest record… most don’t even want to deal with it. Then the 3rd group is the whole Calvinism vs. “free will.” Turns out the area I live in is 95% ardent “free will” whereas I “lean” Calvinist. It is a serious deal breaker.

I guess “hard” positions on issues that are not of first importance would have been a deal breaker for our church (at least for me on the committee). E.g., our current pastor does not use the KJV, but doesn’t oppose its use either (good thing, because that’s what I use in the pew). If a visiting preacher uses it, that’s OK, though he wouldn’t have a KJVO type in the pulpit. He also leans Calvinistic, but doesn’t make a big issue of it. He spends no time preaching the “doctrines of Grace,” but is clearly not a “free-will” type. Given the education level of people in our area, a PhD in a non-Bible field would certainly not be a problem. It at least indicates that the candidate can think and state ideas rigorously. That’s a plus in my opinion.

Extremes in either of the doctrinal positions you mentioned (only/anti-KJV, or hard Calvinist/hard Arminian would have been turnoffs to my decision-making process as one of the committee members, as the new pastor would be taking the job of pastoring people from all over the spectrum on those issues, as our church contains all of them, and those issues are not as clear as something like the virgin birth, no matter what their proponents claim.

Won’t even return my call and I know from the SBC regional director that they received only a handful of applications. In one case I wrote a letter to the church asking why I was not considered. They replied with a thank you for applying generic letter. The person they did choose died 6 months later. They went 3 years without a pastor following that and wouldn’t even return my call. I can give 5 other examples like this.

It’s clearly just rude when calls are not returned or accepted. However, when deciding between a couple candidates to be able to present one to the church, if there are candidates that are equally qualified or very close, with each candidate having particular strengths, but only one makes the cut, it would be hard to give a reason that would satisfy someone not selected. If the issue would be doctrinal disagreement, that would be easy to state. It would be harder to explain differences in preaching style (as the committee listened to messages from the candidates).

I’m not a pastor, but when I have not been selected for a job after an interview, I’ve never gotten a hard and fast reason from the company. It’s always something like “we decided to go a different direction.” I’d say you’ll have to get used to that part.

I appreciate your answers. In my case I suspect that each church I have applied to had a secret, undisclosed requirement. For example, use the KJV bible, or we don’t believe in wife’s working. In another case, I suspect the problem was division in the city SBC church community. I was coming from a church where the new church did not like my pastor. The thing is, if you send a man a 12 page questionnaire, and he fills it out in detail, the least you should do is met with him in some way, if only a phone call. I have spent dozens of hours answering long lists of doctrine questions in detail, only to be left feeling like the church didn’t even look at my submission. That is rude.

of 180,000, an independent Baptist church, had their pastor retire. After 6 months the opening was still there. Now, I am 49 mind you, with a MDiv and 30 years experience at church. I’ve done everything but be an elder. I applied thinking I had a reasonable chance. I filled out all the info, including a long doctrinal questionnaire. I submitted the application and checked on it after 2 weeks. The chair of the search committee said they had not looked at it yet. After a month, same answer. After 3 months, same answer. I finally asked if they were ever going to look at it. He said thank you for applying… A year later, a professor at the SBC seminary in Kansas City retired, and he became the pastor. Mind you, this church is 50 people at most!!!

I don’t know that my church, when looking for a new pastor a couple of years back, had “secret” requirements, but there were a number of things we were looking for—dispensational in interpretation and eschatology, cessationist in pneumatology, firmly fundamental in basic doctrines, not “too Calvinistic”. Some things are easy to state in a job description, others are not.

In the end, we went with a known quantity with a long history in the GARBC and known/public commitment to all these. I would guess that a lot of smaller churches, especially those with a lot of multigenerational families, are going to have huge issues in picking a new pastor because their list of non-negotiables is long.

I would tend to agree that in the same way many young single people have problems finding a spouse because their lists of non-negotiables are too long, many churches have trouble finding leadership because their lists of non-negotiables are too long as well. Obviously there are a lot of people who disagree with me there. Good luck, Mark, and I’m going to suggest your network ought to include relationship-building whereby you’ll apply to the church with a few letters of recommendation coming along with your resume/CV.

I’m not sure there is a benefit to the church of having a list of “secret requirements.” If you’re serious about finding the right match, you should be upfront with what you’re wanting. This is especially true when it comes to doctrinal and ecclesiological issues.

Here’s the tricky thing: When I was chatting with the elders where I’m now serving, they said the church holds to the Baptist Faith & Message. But, the BFM is actually a broad doctrinal statement. There’s no commitment to reformed soteriology, no position on sign gifts, no preferred form of church governance other than a commitment to “democratic processes,” and no stance on eschatological details. So, I had to dig deeper to get the church’s “unofficial” position on these particular matters.

The elders were upfront about wanting someone who held to the doctrines of grace. In their questions, they also asked about my position on complementarianism, my philosophy of corporate worship, my understanding of the role and relationship between elders and deacons, my beliefs about church discipline, my vision for the church’s involvement in missions, my views regarding resolution 9, and my and my wife’s understanding of her role.

Additionally, they wanted examples of my preaching, which I had from preaching at my former church.

I will say though, that this all started with a recommendation by someone who attends my former church. His brother is one of our elders. I didn’t even know he was recommending me, but without that recommendation, I would probably never have known about this opportunity nor been contacted. Relationships and personal recommendations matter.

[Mark_Smith] My disappointment is how many churches are closed off to the idea of an older person becoming a first time pastor who didn’t go through the teen youth group->bible college->youth pastor->senior pastor pathway. And how many churches looking for pastors have asked what my debt is and whether my wife works, but never asked my beliefs, or whether I can read Greek and Hebrew…

Personally, I think the WHOLE searching/interviewing/hiring process is kinda sad.

I think our churches would be much better off if we said something like, “Yes, come, get a job and serve. After serving in the church, and after life in a small group where we really get to know you and you really get to know us, you’ll have the opportunity to join the elder track. If you serve well as an elder and we decide we want you to labor all day in ministry here, then we’ll transition you to paid elder.”

I’d like to see more churches identify, test, train, and ordain men from their own congregation instead of always looking for external candidates.

However, through the years I’ve found this proverb to be true in churches: “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.”

The internal guy usually gets passed over because the church knows him too well.

The internal guy usually gets passed over because the church knows him too well.

Might not this be a good thing? If they know you that well and don’t want to listen to you, trust you, follow your leadership, etc., it is good that you are not the pastor.

I think the problem often is that a pastor is called who isn’t known well enough and when he gets there, they find out he wasn’t what they thought.

I agree, in general, that it is better when the next pastor comes from the congregation. But it is not always possible for various reasons.

[Larry] Might not this be a good thing? If they know you that well and don’t want to listen to you, trust you, follow your leadership, etc., it is good that you are not the pastor.

Agreed. However, this attitude needs to change if the church wants to foster and encourage internal candidates. Nothing like saying, “Hey, we affirm God is calling you to pastoral ministry, but we don’t want you here.”

Regarding “in-house” training—the last two churches where I have served, there are almost no men. There are some, but there are very few. The churches have been overwhelmingly women. We did have a younger man whom I was training, but he got married and hiss bride politely made it clear our church was too small for them, so they left.

Other men who come are spectators, dragged to worship by their wives.

I know a man who was very bothered by this. He used to cast about desperately, thumping the table and saying, “we need more men in this church!” I would shrug my shoulders and say, “what should I do? Conjure them up by magic?” The people who visit are sometimes younger families, but often 50+ couples. That’s who the Lord has brought to our congregation. I’m fine with that. I do wish we were bursting with young families, but what can I do?

All that to say this = I like the Timothy model, and I wish I could implement it. I’ve come to accept that I’m going to have to network with seminaries to get an intern of sorts if I wish to do anything approaching that model.

However, this attitude needs to change if the church wants to foster and encourage internal candidates. Nothing like saying, “Hey, we affirm God is calling you to pastoral ministry, but we don’t want you here.”

It might be that the church does not affirm a call to pastoral ministry—that is, someone has a desire but the church says, “No, we don’t think you have the character and gifting.”

Or it could be that it is a good guy, not just a good fit, such as a great second man in a church that needs a lead pastor. Or a great evangelism and personal discipleship pastor who struggles to speak to a larger group. Someone who might fail in one place might succeed in another place.

I’m currently aware of a disaster among people I know where a church did not want to hire a man as an internal hire, but was recommending him to others. Suffice it to say that it appears at this point to be something of a “we’re going to push off our unqualified people on you.” There is probably a reason at times to match a man with a church better suited to his abilities and interests, but I have to wonder what percentage of the time it’s actually some very serious character issues or interpersonal issues that ought to be resolved.

[Larry]

However, this attitude needs to change if the church wants to foster and encourage internal candidates. Nothing like saying, “Hey, we affirm God is calling you to pastoral ministry, but we don’t want you here.”

It might be that the church does not affirm a call to pastoral ministry—that is, someone has a desire but the church says, “No, we don’t think you have the character and gifting.”

Or it could be that it is a good guy, not just a good fit, such as a great second man in a church that needs a lead pastor. Or a great evangelism and personal discipleship pastor who struggles to speak to a larger group. Someone who might fail in one place might succeed in another place.

If the church does not affirm a call to pastoral ministry, that’s a different situation. I’m talking about when the church affirms the calling, ordains the man, but then doesn’t want him to serve the church as one of the elders / pastors. A guy grows up in the church, his gifting and calling are affirmed by the church, but he has to find another church because his church doesn’t want him to pastor them.

[Bert Perry]

I’m currently aware of a disaster among people I know where a church did not want to hire a man as an internal hire, but was recommending him to others. Suffice it to say that it appears at this point to be something of a “we’re going to push off our unqualified people on you.” There is probably a reason at times to match a man with a church better suited to his abilities and interests, but I have to wonder what percentage of the time it’s actually some very serious character issues or interpersonal issues that ought to be resolved.

I’ve seen a situation where a man and his wife had a heart and call for ministry, but his children were out of control. He and his wife wanted to serve as missionaries, and their pastors / elders didn’t have the needed conversation with them. They assumed the missions organization would filter them out. The missions organization assumed the church had vetted them before recommending them. The couple was on the field for like 4 years before they had to return to the states to get family counseling because their kids were an absolute menace on the field.

My comments in the posts above assume the man is qualified, has been trained, and has had his gifting and calling affirmed by his church, but yet his church tells him they aren’t interested in him serving the church as a pastor / elder.