Is everything that happens predestined?

I do believe God sovereignly control everything, but this obviously does not mean humans are robots (a common strawman attack). I hold to a compatiblistic conception of the sovereignty/free will framework, where man’s freedom is always subservient to and never parallel with God’s freedom. He controls both, and yet men are still responsible for their own sinful actions.

I especially appreciate Charles Hodge’s comments on the intellectual problem this framework gives us:

Systematic Theology, vol. 1, 590:

Thus the fact that God does govern all his creatures and all their actions, is clearly revealed in the Scriptures. And that fact is the foundation of all religion. It is the ground of the consolation of his people in all ages; and it may be said to be the intuitive conviction of all men, however inconsistent it may be with their philosophical theories, or with their professions. The fact of this universal providence of God is all the Bible teaches. It nowhere attempts to inform us how it is that God governs all things, or how his effectual control is to be reconciled with the efficiency of second causes. All the attempts of philosophers and theologians to explain that point, may be pronounced failures, and worse than failures, for they not only raise more difficulties than they solve but in almost all instances they include principles or lead to conclusions inconsistent with the plain teachings of the word of God. These theories are all founded on some à priori principle which is assumed on no higher authority than human reason.

Systematic Theology, vol. 1, 605:

By attempting to teach how God governs free agents, that He first excites them to act; sustains them in action; determines them to act so, and not otherwise; that He effectually concurs in the entity, but not necessarily in the moral quality of the act, we raise at every step the most subtle and perplexing metaphysical questions, which no man is able to solve. And even admitting the theory of concursus, as expounded by the schoolmen and scholastic theologians, to be true, what does it amount to? What real knowledge does it communicate? All we know, and all we need to know, is, (1.) That God does govern all his creatures; and (2.) That his control over them is consistent with their nature, and with his own infinite purity and excellence.

This whole issue is obviously thorny and rouses our passions, whatever our theological persuasion is. I firmly hold to God’s sovereignty, but there is great need for grace when discussing this issue. For a while now, I have been making a comparison document of verses as I do my personal devotions, trying to flesh out the framework of sovereignty/free will for myself. It is a very humbling and interesting exercise.

can you ever NOT do God’s will? If I put “porn” in the google search window and start browsing, according to compatibilism, was that God’s will? It happened, God controls everything, so He willed it.

By the way, I ask this stuff, some of it simplistic, because I don’t have a lot of close Christian friends who like to discuss this stuff. Most don’t, and my wife is getting a little tired of it as well! So, I’ll take it out on you if you don’t mind.

Mark:

Your arguments were common straw men, but I forgive you. A Seminary professor told me once, I believe quoting from D.A. Carson, that the tension between God’s sovereignty and man’s free will is not a doctrine that can be precisely stated or grasped by our minds (Deut 29:29), but more a framework to be explored.

God bless. Consider whether God’s will, below, is active or passive:

11 out of 17 say everything is predestined by God. So, that means that EVERYTHING is God’s will, right? I mean, you can couch it in passive versus active, but ultimately, then, everything that happens happens exactly as God planned it and wanted it. That makes asking “what should I do in this situation silly”. Just do something and it is exactly what God wanted! Yet, I’m thinking that most people here are compatibilists and will say that people have a role to play…Yet, almost no posts on the topic. I guess those 11 people have this all figured out and God didn’t want them to tell us all how this works!;-)

“[He] works all things according to the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11)

• Kennedy assassination - Whoops!
• 9/11 - Sorry … happened while I was napping
• Car crash where you bonked your head …. I was busy with more important things!

I’m not comfortable with the statement: “Everything that happens has been determined to happen by God in advance.”

There may be some way around avoiding determinism if someone does hold to that position, but I have not yet ever seen it. I guess that the best position that I’ve found and agree with is William Lane Craig’s Middle Knowledge View in Divine Foreknowledge: 4 Views (pp. 119-143) - link is to Kindle edition.

BTW, that book is fantastic. It’s well worth a read, even though it’s VERY heavy in some places.

[Jay] I’m not comfortable with the statement: “Everything that happens has been determined to happen by God in advance.”

I think it is best to stick with Scriptural phraseology like the Ephesians 1:11 cited above.

OR

Romans 8:29-30, “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

Eph 1: 11 says all things are worked according to the counsel of His will. That is not the same as “all things happen according to His will”. It could mean that He uses the actions of people to ultimately achieve His will, but that individual pieces need not all be His will.

Also, I never used the word mistake. I am pursuing the idea that God let’s things happen that He would rather people not do, but they choose to do anyway, but then He weaves all of the good and bad decisions together to get to His ultimate desire…or maybe some things never wind up being what God prefers. 1 Samuel 10 and the choosing of Saul as king is a great example of that.

[Mark_Smith]

I never used the word mistake.

Didn’t say you did

Of course, we have free will, and can do many things. But we cannot do all things. We are limited to what we can do by our physical limitations and our intellect and our circumstances.

I can practice playing basketball all I want, but I will never be as good as Kobe Bryant, because I am not very tall, and have never been very coordinated.

As for which job we will get, we actually have limited options. Depending on our personality type, our appearance, our educational background, etc.

I may choose what I am going to eat for breakfast. But it is limited to what items I have in my pantry or refrigerator.

Look at the story of Job. Satan had to ask for God’s permission to test Job.

The parable of the talents shows that God will judge us according to what we were given to work with. God expects us to work with what he have. He doesn’t blame us for what we don’t have.

Mark, regarding your question about whether it is God’s will that someone look at porn: It has been helpful for me to understand that there are what we might call “two wills” of God.

1. His secret will, or will of decree. This is his will in which he is sovereign over every single detail of all of history. This will is never thwarted. Whatever has happened or will happens, in this sense, is God’s will because he has decreed it to be so. It is secret because he does not reveal it to us in advance (except for what he has revealed in Scripture) and because he does not necessarily reveal to us the reasons for what has happened in the past.

2. His revealed will, or will of desire. This is what God “wants,” or desires, to happen as he has revealed to us in Scripture. This will is often thwarted by human disobedience. We see this sense of God’s will in Jesus’ model prayer for us when he tells us to pray to our Father, “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” This cannot refer to his secret or decretive will, because that will is always done on earth. It must refer to his revealed will, which is always done in heaven, but often not done on earth by sinful people, which is why we should we pray for it to happen.

Deuteronomy 29:29 summarizes this for us:

The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.

Passages that indicate God’s preceptive will or will of command include Ezra 10:11; Psa. 5:4; 103:21; Isa. 65:12; Ezek. 18:23, 32; 33:11 (cf. 1 Sam. 2:25); Matt. 7:21; 12:50; Mark 3:35; Luke 7:30 [purpose = will]; John 7:17; 9:31; Acts 17:30; 22:14; Rom. 12:2; 2 Cor. 7:9, 10; Eph. 6:6; Col. 1:19; 4:12; 1 Thess. 4:3; 5:18; Heb. 10:36; 13:21; 1 Pet. 2:15; 4:2; 1 John 2:17; 5:14.

Conversely, passages that indicate God’s decretive or sovereign will include Psa. 33:8-11; 51:18; 103:19; 115:3; Prov. 21:1; Isa. 14:24, 27; 46:10; 48:3, 14; 53:1; Jer. 18:1-11; 49:20; 50:45; Lam. 3:37-38; Dan. 4:17, 25, 32, 35; 5:21; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28; Rom. 1:10 (cf. Rom. 15:32); Rom. 9:19; 1 Cor. 1:1 (cf. 2 Cor. 1:1; Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:1; 2 Tim. 1:1); 12:18; Eph. 1:5, 9, 11; Phil. 2:13; Col. 1:19; James 1:18; Rev. 4:11.

For those that want a more full treatment of the topic just go over to the DesiringGod website and type in: “Are There Two Wills in God?” by John Piper.

I made him just and right,

Sufficient to have stood, though free to fall.
Such I created all th’ Ethereal Powers
And Spirits, both them who stood and them who fail’d;
Freely they stood who stood, and fell who fell.
Not free, what proof could they have giv’n sincere
Of true allegiance, constant Faith or Love,
Where only what they needs must do, appear’d,
Not what they would? what praise could they receive?
What pleasure I from such obedience paid,
When Will and Reason (Reason also is choice)
Useless and vain, of freedom both despoil’d,
Made passive both, had serv’d necessity,
Not mee. They therefore as to right belong’d,
So were created, nor can justly accuse
Thir maker, or thir making, or thir Fate;
As if Predestination over-rul’d
Thir will, dispos’d by absolute Decree
Or high foreknowledge; they themselves decreed
Thir own revolt, not I: if I foreknew,
Foreknowledge had no influence on their fault,
Which had no less prov’d certain unforeknown.

So without least impulse or shadow of Fate,
Or aught by me immutably foreseen,
They trespass, Authors to themselves in all
Both what they judge and what they choose; for so
I form’d them free, and free they must remain,
Till they enthrall themselves: I else must change
Their nature, and revoke the high Decree
Unchangeable, Eternal, which ordain’d
Their freedom: they themselves ordain’d their fall.
(3.98-128) Paradise Lost

I just finished reading Pink’s The Sovereignty of God (online text here).

From Appendix 1: The Will of God

In treating of the Will of God some theologians have differentiated between His decretive will and His permissive will, insisting that there are certain things which God has positively fore-ordained, but other things which He merely suffers to exist or happen. But such a distinction is really no distinction at all, inasmuch as God only permits that which is according to His will. No such distinction would have been invented had these theologians discerned that God could have decreed the existence and activities of sin without Himself being the Author of sin. Personally, we much prefer to adopt the distinction made by the older Calvinists between God’s secret and revealed will, or, to state it in another way, His disposing and His preceptive will.

The chapter is a short read, only 4 pages.

Thanks for that, John. But I’m not sure I agree. 1 Tim. 2:4 says God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” But do all men get saved and come to the knowledge of the truth? No, because God has not decreed that it would be so. There is a sense in which God desires something that doesn’t happen.

Similarly, Jesus taught us to pray, “Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Obviously God’s will of decree is always done on earth because He decrees it to be so, so that can’t be what Jesus is talking about. Jesus is teaching us to pray for God’s desired (or revealed) will to come about. In that sense, there are certain things that happen that go against God’s will, or it wouldn’t be necessary for us to pray for His will to happen.