Stringed instruments are more important in corporate worship than are wind instruments or percussion instruments
I believe that the biblical data strongly shows that stringed instruments are far more important in the worship of God than are either wind instruments or percussion instruments. My saying this does not stem in any way from my hating either wind instruments or percussion instruments.
Nor does it show that I have any personal biases against or "racist" hatred of "modern" music or the people(s) who have produced or who favor that music, etc. Rather, I am fully convinced from the biblical data alone that God has emphatically set forth the primacy of stringed instruments in corporate worship that He accepts.
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[RG] Suppose you pray for daily bread and God gives you a steak for each meal that day from an anonymous giver. Did God give you literal bread, or did He give you a steak? Did "bread" in your prayer mean literal bread or did it mean "food"? It did not mean both at the same time; in fact, it did not mean literal bread at all.
[KM] But if the anonymous donor gave you both bread and steak that day, then the answer to the prayer would be literal and figurative at the same time. If a person prays for daily bread, are they are going to be satisfied if they just get bread? I would hope so, since they are asking for literal bread and should be content if they just get bread. The asking also contains, at the same time, the recognition that God provides all their needs, so they are asking for something literal that also means, at the same time, so much more.
Yes, I expected that you would respond this way. So what?
You have no proof from the text that "harps" in Revelation 5 are anything but harps.
Alternatively, if you claim that they are harps and symbolic, who gets to say that they aren't symbolic of just all kinds of stringed instruments and not all kinds of instruments (stringed, wind, and percussion)?
What's more, the text refutes your approach by signaling explicitly that the vials of incense are symbolic and does not do so with the harps.
[KM] I don't see the relationship between determining the relative importance of a list of things and determining what is acceptable, Suppose I were to start a thread titled, "Preaching is more important in corporate worship than singing, offering, or announcements." I think I could make a case for that. Even though singing is important, I think preaching is more important. The announcement time isn't even included in scripture, so that would be the least important, even to the point of being unnecessary. Some people would even say it's a distraction, but others wouldn't be distracted by announcements. The relative importance, or lack of importance, of these items would have no bearing on whether God considers any of these items to be unacceptable.
If a church were to have 5 minutes of preaching and 50 minutes of singing, etc., the church certainly is communicating that it believes that the preaching is less important than everything else.
[KM]The relative importance of various types of musical instruments would also have no bearing on whether any of them are unacceptable.
Look again at the title of this thread and the opening post. I did not make any claims in either one that any kind of musical instrument is unacceptable.
Suppose that Revelation 5, 14, and 15 had "timbrels" in place of "harps," etc. in each passage:
Revelation 5:8[modified] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them [timbrels], and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Revelation 14:1[modified] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of [timbrelers timbreling] with their [timbrels]: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 15:1[modified] And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the [timbrels] of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Can you imagine the comments that would be made if some musically conservative believers were to say that these passages would not show anything about the importance of percussion instruments in the worship of heaven? Think further about the intense ridicule and attacks that we would get if we were to say that timbrels in each passage actually represent all kinds of musical instruments and not just timbrels.
Rajesh, you have a point that the kithára is used in Revelation. At other times other instruments are used. Fine. All of that is descriptive.
If you take that to mean that we have a command from the Lord to use guitars, you are going beyond what is written.
If you take it to mean that you, in your conscience, need to use a guitar, I applaud your conviction, even though I don't share it.
Rajesh, you have a point that the kithára is used in Revelation. At other times other instruments are used.
Dan, other than Rev. 5, 14, and 15, I do not know of any other passages in the Bible that reveal anything about the use of musical instruments in the worship in heaven.
There are mentions of trumpets in the book of Revelation, but none of those passages is specifically about the worship music in heaven.
If you know of other passages in the Bible that specifically concern the worship music of heaven, what are those passages?
Yes, I expected that you would respond this way. So what?
So the fact that I responded in a way you expected shows that my response is a logical reply to what you said.
You have no proof from the text that "harps" in Revelation 5 are anything but harps.
I never said I had proof from the text. I specifically used the words "perhaps" and that the harps "seem to me to be symbolic." I didn't say that my interpretation was "what the Bible teaches" as you have done in the past with your interpretations of verses. I also clarified that they would be real harps as well as perhaps representing something.
Alternatively, if you claim that they are harps and symbolic, who gets to say that they aren't symbolic of just all kinds of stringed instruments and not all kinds of instruments (stringed, wind, and percussion)?
I suppose they could be, but the parallelism of the harps being held along with an object that represented prayers made it more likely in my mind that the symbolism of the harps would be praise rather than symbolizing just a larger group of the same kind of instrument.
And I didn't just make that up out of thin air. I got it from a commentary. I realize not every commentary is going to be correct since some commentaries contradict each other, but it was Bible study that led me to this idea.
What's more, the text refutes your approach by signaling explicitly that the vials of incense are symbolic and does not do so with the harps.
The fact that information about a harp's possible symbolism was left out of a particular verse does not provide an explicit refutation of the possibility, and as I said, the parallelism leans in that direction. I find to odd the hear you say that the lack of information is the same as being explicit. Explicit means "stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt."
If a church were to have 5 minutes of preaching and 50 minutes of singing, etc., the church certainly is communicating that it believes that the preaching is less important than everything else.
Not necessarily. If once a year, a church has a singing group come from a Bible college, and the other 51 Sundays they had 50 minutes of preaching, the church would still be placing the primary importance on preaching in their ministry.
Look again at the title of this thread and the opening post. I did not make any claims in either one that any kind of musical instrument is unacceptable.
But you did imply that in a subsequence post when I was asking you what kind of applications you would be making. You said, "In order to make those biblically valid applications that I intend to make, it is necessary first to establish biblically what is true about the Bible's teaching about whether all kinds of instruments are of equal importance in corporate worship that is acceptable to God, or one kind is more important than the others."
Your claim is that it is necessary to assess the importance of various kinds of musical instruments in order to understand "corporate worship that is acceptable to God." I'm simply asking, "What does relative importance of an instrument have to do with acceptability to God?" I don't see the one having any bearing on the other. Acceptability is a "yes or no" characteristic. A kazoo could have zero importance in relationship to a harp, but still be acceptable to God.
There are mentions of trumpets in the book of Revelation, but none of those passages is specifically about the worship music in heaven.
I would make the case that the trumpet is the most important musical instrument in the Bible.
I know you want to limit the discussion to focus specifically on corporate worship so that you can make some points about modern music, but considering how important the trumpet is, it would be a mistake not to look at the bigger picture.
Trumpets are first in the list of commanded praise instruments in Psalm 150: 3-6. Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
Trumpets were sounded on the Day of Atonement. Lev 25:9 Then you shall sound the loud trumpet on the tenth day of the seventh month. On the Day of Atonement you shall sound the trumpet throughout all your land.
A trumpet will sound at the resurrection. 1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The walls of Jericho fell at the sound of trumpets. Joshua 6:20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat.
The presence of God was accompanied by the sound of a trumpet at Mt Sinai. Exodus 19:18-19 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
We even have a word picture related to Isaiah's preaching. Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
I know of no mentions of heavenly musical style or instrumentation.
There is Isaiah 6 - "In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple..." No mention of musical instruments.
So, Rajesh, if you and I lived in 60 AD, we would have no depictions of heavenly musical instruments. And yet the Scriptures, then, were sufficient.
Isaiah could have described musical instruments. He could have--but he didn't.
I know of no mentions of heavenly musical style or instrumentation.
There is Isaiah 6 - "In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple..." No mention of musical instruments.
So, Rajesh, if you and I lived in 60 AD, we would have no depictions of heavenly musical instruments. And yet the Scriptures, then, were sufficient.
Isaiah could have described musical instruments. He could have--but he didn't.
Perhaps you left out the word "other" in your first sentence? Revelation 5, 14, and 15 certainly mention heavenly musical instrumentation.
Concerning Isaiah 6 and 60 AD, what is your point?
The early church already had plain and definitive revelation from the Psalms and other passages that God's will was for the whole world (and not just Israel) to worship Him with musical instruments, as the following article from my blog relates:
Has God Changed His Mind about How He Wants All the Earth to Worship Him?
September 10, 2013
Did God ever make known how He wanted all the earth to worship Him? Has He changed His mind about that subject after the coming of Christ and His finished work of atonement?
God’s Demand of All the Earth
Psalm 98 provides clear revelation that helps us answer both of these questions. Through an unnamed psalmist, God made known when Psalm 98 was written how He wanted all the earth to worship Him at that time:
Psa 98:4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
5 Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.
God commanded that all the earth would sing unto Him with the harp (98:5) and make a joyful noise before Him with trumpets and a cornet (98:6). These commands make clear that God demanded that all the earth worship Him with singing accompanied by musical instruments.
Has God Changed His Mind?
All the earth has never obeyed these commands, and many of the peoples of the earth have never even known specifically that God has commanded them to do this. Are these commands still the will of God for all the earth or has He changed His mind after the coming of Christ?
Based on my study of Scripture, I do not find any basis for holding that these commands no longer apply. I also find no basis for holding that the coming of Christ and His completed work of atonement somehow has done away with these commands.
The lack of specific NT mention of instrumental worship in the first-century Church does not constitute proof that Christians today should worship God by singing without the use of musical instruments. On the contrary, Matthew 28:18-20 compared with Psalm 98:4-6 teaches us that it is part of the Church’s mission to disciple all nations to worship God with singing accompanied by musical instruments!
[KM] I would make the case that the trumpet is the most important musical instrument in the Bible. . ..
[1]Trumpets are first in the list of commanded praise instruments in Psalm 150: 3-6. Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
A. Harps are first in the list of commanded praise instruments in Ps. 33:2, all the instruments are stringed instruments, and trumpets are not even mentioned in Psalm 33:
Psalm 33:2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.
B. Harps are first in the list of commanded praise instruments in Ps. 98:5-6.
Psalm 98:5 Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm. 6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.
C. Harps are the only instruments commanded for use in singing praise in Ps. 147:7.
Psalm 147:7 Sing unto the LORD with thanksgiving; sing praise upon the harp unto our God:
There is more data to show that your first point does not establish that trumpets are the most important instruments, but these three passages are more than enough to make the point.
Conclusion: Order of mention sometimes indicates importance, but trumpets being mentioned first in Ps. 150:3-6 does not establish anything about trumpets being the most important instrument. In fact, the totality of biblical data about praise instruments points strongly to the primacy of stringed instruments in corporate worship.
[KM]I would make the case that the trumpet is the most important musical instrument in the Bible. . . .
[2]Trumpets were sounded on the Day of Atonement. Lev 25:9 Then you shall sound the loud trumpet on the tenth day of the seventh month. On the Day of Atonement you shall sound the trumpet throughout all your land.
Concerning the use of musical instruments in connection with making an atonement for all Israel, God Himself later ordained through His prophets that other instruments besides trumpets were to be used:
2 Chronicles 29:24 And the priests killed them, and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded that the burnt offering and the sin offering should be made for all Israel. 25 And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets. 26 And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. 27 And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel. 28 And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.
This particular passage mentions two specific types of stringed instruments, but only one type each of percussion and wind instruments.
Furthermore, it twice distinguishes trumpets from instruments that were of or ordained by David, king of Israel. This shows that God Himself advanced what His people did--in making atonement for themselves--musically by ordaining the use of instruments that are distinguished from trumpets.
[KM]I would make the case that the trumpet is the most important musical instrument in the Bible. . . .
[3]A trumpet will sound at the resurrection. 1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[4]The walls of Jericho fell at the sound of trumpets. Joshua 6:20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat.
[5]The presence of God was accompanied by the sound of a trumpet at Mt Sinai. Exodus 19:18-19 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
All three passages concern one-time historical events where God sovereignly ordained or will ordain the use of trumpets or a trumpet in connection with supernatural actions by God.
These passages do show important instances of God's use of trumpets, but these passages have zero relevance to anything that humans in any other situations were or are to do. They certainly do not show anything about trumpets being more important than stringed instruments are in corporate worship.
[KM]I would make the case that the trumpet is the most important musical instrument in the Bible. . . .
[6] We even have a word picture related to Isaiah's preaching. Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
Whereas Isaiah 58:1 only likens Isaiah's preaching to the sound of a trumpet, Scripture explicitly speaks of prophesying for God (speaking truth for God) through other musical instruments but not trumpets, and lists harps first and lists two types of stringed instruments in doing so:
1 Chronicles 25:1 Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was: 2 Of the sons of Asaph; Zaccur, and Joseph, and Nethaniah, and Asarelah, the sons of Asaph under the hands of Asaph, which prophesied according to the order of the king. 3 Of Jeduthun: the sons of Jeduthun; Gedaliah, and Zeri, and Jeshaiah, Hashabiah, and Mattithiah, six, under the hands of their father Jeduthun, who prophesied with a harp, to give thanks and to praise the LORD. 4 Of Heman: the sons of Heman; Bukkiah, Mattaniah, Uzziel, Shebuel, and Jerimoth, Hananiah, Hanani, Eliathah, Giddalti, and Romamtiezer, Joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir, and Mahazioth: 5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn. And God gave to Heman fourteen sons and three daughters. 6 All these were under the hands of their father for song in the house of the LORD, with cymbals, psalteries, and harps, for the service of the house of God, according to the king's order to Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman. 7 So the number of them, with their brethren that were instructed in the songs of the LORD, even all that were cunning, was two hundred fourscore and eight.
1 Chron. 25:3 speaks explicitly of prophesying with a harp, and the passage does not say anything about the use of trumpets in any such prophesying.
Isaiah 58:1 does not establish anything about trumpets being the most important instruments of all.
[KM]I would make the case that the trumpet is the most important musical instrument in the Bible. . . .
I have answered all 6 of your points about trumpets supposedly being the most important instruments.
Beyond what I have already presented, there is much more data that definitively establishes the primacy of stringed instruments in corporate worship.
[KM]Your claim is that it is necessary to assess the importance of various kinds of musical instruments in order to understand "corporate worship that is acceptable to God." I'm simply asking, "What does relative importance of an instrument have to do with acceptability to God?" I don't see the one having any bearing on the other. Acceptability is a "yes or no" characteristic.
No, acceptability is not a "yes or no" characteristic. How an instrument is used plays into whether its use in corporate worship is acceptable to God or not.
What proportions of instruments are used also plays into determining whether their use in corporate worship is acceptable to God or not.
A kazoo could have zero importance in relationship to a harp, but still be acceptable to God.
So what? Someone could claim that a kazoo is acceptable for individual use in private worship, but that claim would not automatically establish that it would be acceptable for use in corporate worship.
If a kazoo or multiple kazoos were to be used in corporate worship, it or they would need be used in proper relationship to the use of stringed instruments in order for the worship to be acceptable to God.
[RG]What's more, the text refutes your approach by signaling explicitly that the vials of incense are symbolic and does not do so with the harps.
[KM]The fact that information about a harp's possible symbolism was left out of a particular verse does not provide an explicit refutation of the possibility, and as I said, the parallelism leans in that direction. I find to odd the hear you say that the lack of information is the same as being explicit. Explicit means "stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt."
I am contrasting the fact that the Spirit made explicit that the vials of incense are symbolic. He did not do so with the harps. That difference is explicit in the text.
Your approach is to say that difference does not matter. You have to show why it does not matter. Why did the Spirit explicitly say that the vials of incense symbolized something else, but He did not explicitly say that the harps do so?
Furthermore, as I have said more than once, if the harps symbolize something in Rev. 5, what does the singing symbolize? If you say that the harps are symbolic, but the singing is not and offer no textual basis to support your claim, you are merely picking and choosing what is what according to what supports the interpretation that you want to be true.
Conclusion: Order of mention sometimes indicates importance, but trumpets being mentioned first in Ps. 150:3-6 does not establish anything about trumpets being the most important instrument.
Since the order of mention only sometimes indicates importance, then the verses you listed, in which harps are mentioned first, do not establish anything about harps being the most important instrument. I included the Psalms verse mainly to show that trumpets were used as praise instruments as well as harps.
In fact, the totality of biblical data about praise instruments points strongly to the primacy of stringed instruments in corporate worship.
As I pointed out in my post, if we are talking about importance of instruments in the Bible, then it is a mistake to ignore the bigger picture and just limit our discussion to corporate worship.
This particular passage mentions two specific types of stringed instruments, but only one type each of percussion and wind instruments.
Furthermore, it twice distinguishes trumpets from instruments that were of or ordained by David, king of Israel. This shows that God Himself advanced what His people did--in making atonement for themselves--musically by ordaining the use of instruments that are distinguished from trumpets.
I wonder why God would choose to specifically distinguish trumpets from the group of other instruments. Setting something apart like that in an account can often indicate importance of some sort. Also, could there be significance in the fact that Leviticus is only mentioning the trumpets and not the other instruments in chapter 25? Previously, in Lev. 23, the day of atonement is set up for the 10th day of the 7th month, but there are also trumpets mentioned for the first day of that month.
Lev. 23:24 says, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
I don't believe we have any sabbaths that are a memorial of the playing of harps. This sabbath is a convocation, which is a gathering of people, so this definitely puts an importance on trumpets in corporate worship, along with the importance that trumpets have in the bigger picture.
All three passages concern one-time historical events where God sovereignly ordained or will ordain the use of trumpets or a trumpet in connection with supernatural actions by God.
And I didn't even include the trumpet judgments in Revelation or Gideon's army of 300 blowing trumpets.
These passages do show important instances of God's use of trumpets, but these passages have zero relevance to anything that humans in any other situations were or are to do. They certainly do not show anything about trumpets being more important than stringed instruments are in corporate worship.
As I said, I'm presenting a bigger picture than just corporate worship. Trumpets are more important than harps in this bigger picture.
I have answered all 6 of your points about trumpets supposedly being the most important instruments.
And I've responded to each of your answers, except for the one regarding prophesying. The fact that people played harps and other instruments while prophesying does not outweigh that fact that a trumpet sound itself is used as a picture of hearing a loud clear message. Rev. 1:10 says, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," and Rev 4:1 says "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;"
No, acceptability is not a "yes or no" characteristic. How an instrument is used plays into whether its use in corporate worship is acceptable to God or not.
What proportions of instruments are used also plays into determining whether their use in corporate worship is acceptable to God or not. (highlighting added)
Is acceptable . . . or not.
Is acceptable . . . or not.
Yes . . or no.
Yes . . . or no.
What does "proportions of instruments" even mean? Are you saying there is information in the Bible that would let us determine we have to have X proportion of stringed instruments compared to X proportion of wind compared to X proportion of percussion in order to have acceptable corporate worship music? Where is your "textual basis to support your claim"?
Since the order of mention only sometimes indicates importance, then the verses you listed, in which harps are mentioned first, do not establish anything about harps being the most important instrument. I included the Psalms verse mainly to show that trumpets were used as praise instruments as well as harps.
No, you did not do that to mainly show that trumpets were used as praise instruments as well as harps. You listed the order of mention with trumpets being first in your arguments to support your view that trumpets are the most important instrument, and you specifically stated that they were mentioned first in that passage:
[KM][1]Trumpets are first in the list of commanded praise instruments in Psalm 150: 3-6. Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
You are now saying something different that you did not say in that post.
I have completely refuted your use of that point by showing that harps are mentioned first in multiple passages.
[KM]As I said, I'm presenting a bigger picture than just corporate worship. Trumpets are more important than harps in this bigger picture.
This is merely your assertion and is not supported by the evidence that you present.
I have answered all 6 of your points about trumpets supposedly being the most important instruments.
[KM]And I've responded to each of your answers, except for the one regarding prophesying. The fact that people played harps and other instruments while prophesying does not outweigh that fact that a trumpet sound itself is used as a picture of hearing a loud clear message. Rev. 1:10 says, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," and Rev 4:1 says "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;"
It does not outweigh what Revelation 1:10 says because you say it does not do so? That is merely your assertion.
There is more biblical evidence that shows that stringed instruments are more important than trumpets that I have not presented.
Most importantly, you explain away the heavenly importance of harps by claiming without any basis that harps are symbolic of praise played with all kinds of instruments. You have zero Bible to support what you read into the text of those passages in Revelation.
I can just as well claim that all the mentions of trumpets in Revelation are symbolic for all kinds of instruments and do not show anything specifically about trumpets being more important than other instruments are.
[RG]In fact, the totality of biblical data about praise instruments points strongly to the primacy of stringed instruments in corporate worship.
[KM]As I pointed out in my post, if we are talking about importance of instruments in the Bible, then it is a mistake to ignore the bigger picture and just limit our discussion to corporate worship.
This thread is not about any purported comparative importance concerning "the bigger picture" of one kind of instruments in the Bible versus the others. Unless that discussion has relevance to the stated topic of the thread, it is an inappropriate insertion of a different topic into a specified discussion.
Revelation 5 is the first of three passages in the final book of Scripture that reveal to us the only musical information in Scripture that the Spirit has inspired for our profit about heavenly worship music. A careful handling of the Greek word ἕκαστος [Eng. "each"] in Revelation 5:8 teaches us a key truth about the harps that are mentioned in that passage.
Revelation 5:8 καὶ ὅτε ἔλαβε τὸ βιβλίον, τὰ τέσσαρα ζῶα καὶ οἱ εἰκοσιτέσσαρες πρεσβύτεροι ἔπεσον ἐνώπιον τοῦ ἀρνίου, ἔχοντες ἕκαστος κιθάρας, καὶ φιάλας χρυσᾶς γεμούσας θυμιαμάτων, αἵ εἰσιν αἱ προσευχαὶ τῶν ἁγίων.
Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
The Spirit's use of this word shows us that all of the elders in this scene had the exact same thing--harps. Whatever harps signify in this verse therefore has to be the same thing for each elder.
Those who take harps in this verse to be symbolic of praise offered on all kinds of musical instruments do not have any basis to do so in the text. The text does not allow for or support holding in any way that some of the elders had one musical instrument, others had a different musical instrument, and so on.
All 24 elders in Revelation 5:8 had harps--they did not have differing musical instruments among themselves. Revelation 5:8 does not in any way support the view that harps in the passage signify praise on all kinds of musical instruments.
Rajesh, we’re expressing opinions here, right? I mean how many music threads have we had? And we’re all - every one of us - are expressing opinions.
Right?
Rajesh, we’re expressing opinions here, right? I mean how many music threads have we had? And we’re all - every one of us - are expressing opinions.
Right?
Dan, is this in relation to my most recent post? The whole thread?
As much as possible, I am trying to tie what I say to the text.
Just half of the "claves"
Revelation 5:8 says, “having every one of them harps.”
You say that means the harps are identical.
But no. That’s not what “each” means. We can each have an opinion. And those opinions can all be very different.
Revelation 5:8 says, “having every one of them harps.”
You say that means the harps are identical.
But no. That’s not what “each” means. We can each have an opinion. And those opinions can all be very different.
Ah. Opinions can all be very different and still be opinions.
A trumpet, however, is not and cannot be a harp. A timbrel is not and cannot be a harp. Etc.
1 Corinthians 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
There is no basis to say that "pipe" and "harp" in this NT verse are the same thing. In the same way, "harps" in Rev. 5:8 cannot mean harps, pipes, trumpets, timbrels, cornets, cymbals, etc.
Furthermore, any attempt to say that harps does not mean harps in Rev. 14, but actually means harps, pipes, trumpets, cymbals, etc. is refuted by explicit content in the book of Revelation itself:
Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Revelation 18:22 shows us that in NT usage, harpers is distinguished explicitly from pipers and trumpeters. The harpers in Revelation 14:2, therefore, cannot mean either pipers or trumpeters as well as harpers.
In fact, all 3 words in "harpers harping . . . harps" specifically have to do with the same stringed instruments--harps.
No, you did not do that to mainly show that trumpets were used as praise instruments as well as harps. You listed the order of mention with trumpets being first in your arguments to support your view that trumpets are the most important instrument, and you specifically stated that they were mentioned first in that passage:
Yes, I did mention that they were listed first, but that doesn't rule out my having multiple motivations for making that particular point. Since your limited focus for this thread is on corporate worship, I would be remiss if I didn't include a point in which trumpets are used as a praise instrument in worship. So it made sense for me to find a verse in which people are commanded to use trumpets. Which passage should I use? There are more than one. Since order of mention sometimes indicates importance, I picked a passage in which trumpets are mentioned first, but my main reason for that point simply was to show that trumpets are a commanded praise instrument. The trumpets being mentioned first was a bonus, but I have no problem acknowledging that harps are mentioned first in more passages. Harps were likely a more common instrument than trumpets.
[KM]As I said, I'm presenting a bigger picture than just corporate worship. Trumpets are more important than harps in this bigger picture.
[RG]This is merely your assertion and is not supported by the evidence that you present.
Of course I realize this is my assertion. I'm the one who made it. I presented 6 different points and then answered all of your objections to my points. Your claim that my points are not supported is merely your assertion.
This thread is not about any purported comparative importance concerning "the bigger picture" of one kind of instruments in the Bible versus the others. Unless that discussion has relevance to the stated topic of the thread, it is an inappropriate insertion of a different topic into a specified discussion.
How is a discussion about the relative importance of instruments not relevant to a discussion of the relative importance of instruments? It's not like I started talking about vaccines in this thread. It feels like you are trying to limit a legitimate examination of all the biblical data because don't like where the discussion led.
Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.The Spirit's use of this word shows us that all of the elders in this scene had the exact same thing--harps. Whatever harps signify in this verse therefore has to be the same thing for each elder.
Those who take harps in this verse to be symbolic of praise offered on all kinds of musical instruments do not have any basis to do so in the text. The text does not allow for or support holding in any way that some of the elders had one musical instrument, others had a different musical instrument, and so on.
I never said that each of the elders would have had a different musical instrument. How did you get that from my statement that a harp could be symbolic of praise in general? The first elder had a real harp and that harp could also be understood as a symbol of praise. The second elder had a real harp and that harp could also be understood as a symbol of praise. The third elder had a real harp and that harp could also be understood as a symbol of praise. Do I need to go through all 24 elders?
If you say that the harps could not have any symbolism because the symbolism isn't explained directly in the verse, then you need to explain Revelation 5:6, just two verses prior. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
In this verse John sees the Lamb having seven horns and seven eyes, but only the seven eyes are directly explained in the text. Is it your contention that since the seven horns are not explained, they must have no symbolic meaning at all? Most of the commentaries I checked say that the seven horns represent perfect power, but that explanation is not found directly in the verse. Items in a verse can have symbolism without the explanation being directly present.
[RG]This thread is not about any purported comparative importance concerning "the bigger picture" of one kind of instruments in the Bible versus the others. Unless that discussion has relevance to the stated topic of the thread, it is an inappropriate insertion of a different topic into a specified discussion.
[KM]How is a discussion about the relative importance of instruments not relevant to a discussion of the relative importance of instruments? It's not like I started talking about vaccines in this thread. It feels like you are trying to limit a legitimate examination of all the biblical data because don't like where the discussion led.
At this point, this line of comments is now bordering on obfuscation.
A discussion of the relative importance in the so-called big picture has no relevance to the relative importance in corporate worship. Even if it were true that trumpets are the most important instruments in the so-called big picture, that would not establish anything about their being the most important instruments in corporate worship.
To establish what kind of instruments are the most important in corporate worship, we have to look at what God has revealed about corporate worship and not about irrelevant uses of musical instruments that do not concern corporate worship.
Yes, I did mention that they were listed first, but that doesn't rule out my having multiple motivations for making that particular point. Since your limited focus for this thread is on corporate worship, I would be remiss if I didn't include a point in which trumpets are used as a praise instrument in worship. So it made sense for me to find a verse in which people are commanded to use trumpets. Which passage should I use? There are more than one. Since order of mention sometimes indicates importance, I picked a passage in which trumpets are mentioned first, but my main reason for that point simply was to show that trumpets are a commanded praise instrument. The trumpets being mentioned first was a bonus, but I have no problem acknowledging that harps are mentioned first in more passages. Harps were likely a more common instrument than trumpets.
Do you have any Bible to support your claim in the last sentence?
[RG]Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.The Spirit's use of this word shows us that all of the elders in this scene had the exact same thing--harps. Whatever harps signify in this verse therefore has to be the same thing for each elder.
Those who take harps in this verse to be symbolic of praise offered on all kinds of musical instruments do not have any basis to do so in the text. The text does not allow for or support holding in any way that some of the elders had one musical instrument, others had a different musical instrument, and so on.
KM]I never said that each of the elders would have had a different musical instrument. How did you get that from my statement that a harp could be symbolic of praise in general? The first elder had a real harp and that harp could also be understood as a symbol of praise. The second elder had a real harp and that harp could also be understood as a symbol of praise. The third elder had a real harp and that harp could also be understood as a symbol of praise. Do I need to go through all 24 elders?
You made this comment much earlier in this thread:
This is reading into the passages what they do not say.
The fact is that the Spirit specifically inspired the mention of only harps and did not mention in this or any other passage in the Bible any other instruments used in heavenly worship. That truth proves that the Spirit has profoundly highlighted the use of harps in heavenly worship.
At this point, this line of comments is now bordering on obfuscation.
The fact that you do not like the direction a thread is heading does not mean that obfuscation is taking place.
A discussion of the relative importance in the so-called big picture has no relevance to the relative importance in corporate worship. Even if it were true that trumpets are the most important instruments in the so-called big picture, that would not establish anything about their being the most important instruments in corporate worship.
Sure it has relevance. If both harps and trumpets have importance in corporate worship, then the relative importance between the two can involve factors that extend beyond the worship itself. Also, remember that I quoted Lev. 23:24 which says, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. There is no established holy convocation called a memorial of playing of harps. The convocation involving trumpets certainly places a strong importance on trumpets in corporate worship, and their bigger picture importance cannot be ignored in assessing subsets of importance.
To establish what kind of instruments are the most important in corporate worship, we have to look at what God has revealed about corporate worship and not about irrelevant uses of musical instruments that do not concern corporate worship.
So far we have had a lot of discussion about some worship that will be taking place in heaven at the end times, but you haven't proven any relevance of those descriptions to our corporate worship here on earth at this present time. We've talked about instruments commanded to be used by the Israelites during the Day of Atonement and about musicians appointed at the temple, but we no longer live during temple worship times, so those commands do not apply specifically to us today. We have lots of commands in the Psalms to use many different instruments in our worship. All the world is to worship God with music from stringed, wind, and percussion instruments. How exactly are you assessing importance between all those various instruments? What factors are you using to assess one instrument as more important than another?
Earlier you said, "Someone could claim that a kazoo is acceptable for individual use in private worship, but that claim would not automatically establish that it would be acceptable for use in corporate worship." What biblical principle are you using to make a distinction between private worship and corporate worship in regards to what instruments are acceptable to God?
You made this comment much earlier in this thread:
This is reading into the passages what they do not say.
The fact is that the Spirit specifically inspired the mention of only harps and did not mention in this or any other passage in the Bible any other instruments used in heavenly worship. That truth proves that the Spirit has profoundly highlighted the use of harps in heavenly worship.
I don't see my statement as reading anything into the passage. I said that the passage doesn't have information either way about other instruments. The mention of harps alone is not an indication that no other instruments could have been present. We just don't have that information, and I've already shown support for the possibility of a symbolic meaning to the harp in addition to it's real presence. It's not logical to object to the possibility of symbolism in Revelation 5.
At this point, this line of comments is now bordering on obfuscation.
[KM]The fact that you do not like the direction a thread is heading does not mean that obfuscation is taking place.
A discussion of the relative importance in the so-called big picture has no relevance to the relative importance in corporate worship. Even if it were true that trumpets are the most important instruments in the so-called big picture, that would not establish anything about their being the most important instruments in corporate worship.
[KM]Sure it has relevance. If both harps and trumpets have importance in corporate worship, then the relative importance between the two can involve factors that extend beyond the worship itself.
This is absurdity. The relative importance between the two for corporate worship does not and cannot involve factors that extend beyond the corporate worship itself. Only whatever is significant for their roles and uses in corporate worship is what is relevant for assessing their relative importance in corporate worship.
I don't see my statement as reading anything into the passage. I said that the passage doesn't have information either way about other instruments. The mention of harps alone is not an indication that no other instruments could have been present. We just don't have that information, and I've already shown support for the possibility of a symbolic meaning to the harp in addition to it's real presence. It's not logical to object to the possibility of symbolism in Revelation 5.
Of course, it is fully biblical to object to reading into the text what is not there, either literally or symbolically. You have not shown any biblical support for the Spirit's ever using harps as symbolic of praise offered by all kinds of instruments.
Moreover, the same can be done with all the trumpet passages in Revelation. According to your approach, every one of those do not show any special importance to trumpets. To say that all the trumpet passages in Revelation symbolize the simultaneous use of all kinds of instruments and not just trumpets, however, would be patently absurd and faulty interpretation of Scripture.
In actuality, your approach is completely faulty. Because the Spirit repeatedly and explicitly mentions trumpets in Revelation itself, the fact that trumpets were not chosen to be the explicitly and exclusively mentioned instruments that supposedly symbolized praise with all kinds of instruments in heavenly worship proves that they are not the most important instrument in the corporate worship of heaven.
Even if "harps" in Revelation 5, 14, and 15 were symbolic for praise by all kinds of instruments (they certainly are not), my point would still stand because the Spirit chose harps and not trumpets to be what He explicitly and exclusively chose to (supposedly) symbolize such all-kinds-of-instruments praise. You have to explain biblically why the Spirit did so when supposedly trumpets are the most important instruments of all in the whole Bible.
Proper exegesis of Revelation refutes any claim that Revelation 5, 14, and 15 show any importance of trumpets in heavenly worship. To say anything else is eisegesis.
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