Calvary Baptist Seminary to cease operations in 1 year

While I hope I am wrong, I take this as a sign of the times – not only theologically, but especially economically. I hope this is the last school that suffers this fate, but my head tells me it probably will not be. My heart aches for my many friends who have gone through this school, and for those who are involved there now, for the pain they must be feeling today.

As far as the online situation goes, I always thought of Calvary as an innovator. I remember 20 years ago when they were sending me info on their videotape classes. Perhaps others passed them by in the meantime, but we don’t know if that is the real issue here.

I think Charlie’s comments are more to the point. From my home, I am within a day’s drive of the following fundamental Baptist seminaries/grad programs: Maranatha, Northland, Central, Faith and Detroit. I could possibly stretch the drive and throw in Calvary in Kansas City – and perhaps even more! This is incredible!!

This is not to mention the conservative evangelical options I would pass on the way such as Moody, TEDS, Wheaton, etc., which are also competing for some of the same limited pool of students. Then throw in the online and satellite options, and the number choices themselves would be almost overwhelming.

I weep with my CBS brethren today – and hope that this does not become a regular occurrence.

First let me express my sorrow over Lansdale’s announcement yesterday. I know the men there, have enjoyed their fellowship and grieve with them over their loss. Their loss is certainly not our gain as a seminary. I wish Tim and Sam and the rest of the men and women at Calvary God’s grace as they make this difficult transition. Much good work has been accomplished through their graduates and will continue to be done.

Now to answer James Kime

[James K]

Schools that refuse to adjust to a technologically driven society will eventually do the same. Seriously, why would anyone pack up their family to go to one of these seminaries when they can get it all online or by video now? Central…Detroit…

James:

Several comments are in order.

1. The very nature of your question suggests that you have never been to seminary or you would know the answer to this question, at least in part.
2. Online education is not new and it does have merit in some cases but there are many things online education cannot do. I took Emergency Medical Technician training in the mid 80s via computer in an early “online” program. But I still needed to attend some training days to do hand-ons training. In the same way, teaching the Synoptic Problem can be accomplished via the computer, but I am not sure how you would teach expository preaching without a classroom. Certainly one could learn a bit of theory, but the practical application would be limited. Ok, so leave that to the churches … well, I am not sure many pastors are equipped to train other men to preach. This does not mean necessarily that the seminary prof is better, but chapel for example, gives us an opportunity to bring in men who model the expository pattern. Central, long before I got here, produced some very capable preachers of the Word, many of whom speak in our chapel.
3. I think that there is something fundamentally missing in online education that 2 Tim. 2:2 addresses. Education for ministry is more than learning a set of facts about the Bible. It is one saved sinner encouraging another saved sinner in the work of the ministry. I really wonder if Jesus were alive today, if he would choose a video monitor over his ancient discipleship method. I wonder if Paul would do this either. Ministerial training is life on life and this simply cannot be done on a video terminal.
4. As far as moving families to go to school, I have done this twice. It is not for the faint of heart and no one said it would be easy. But the rewards have paid me personally in riches dividends. Sitting under Rolland McCune, et al and Tom Nettles, et al would have been decidedly different if all I ever saw of them was pixels. It’s hard to have a cup of coffee with pixels or to share a blessing or a burden with a video screen.

Now none of this should be taken as any sort of criticism for those who do online or video education. We have talked about doing it at Central and I see Detroit is launching a program soon. More power to them. Liberty is a master at doing this. But I really hope that ministerial training doesn’t become ONLY online training. Our churches will be the poorer for it!

By the way, I taught 32 men in Africa this summer. Would have been a whole lot cheaper to stay home and look at a computer screen or video feed. But the experience of meeting them and interacting with them, eating with them, fellowshipping with them, etc. was profound. Nothing quite like students in a classroom setting!

I will grant that video education is much better than online and I jumbled this post a bit conflating the two. I think my essential point remains … there is something about a classroom setting that is lost if the professor and the students are not in the same airspace.

Jeff Straub

[Brian McCrorie]

It would be interesting if someone had some stats about where pastoral majors from Northland, Maranatha, BJU, Piedmont, etc., were going now for seminary training.

I think that’s one of the more pertinent questions. My anecdotal evidence from BJU (2007 grad) is that students were split somewhat evenly between fundy and evangelical schools. The non-fundies ended up mostly at Reformed (RTS mainly) or Southern Baptist schools. Those remaining in the fundy world scattered (Lansdale, VA. beach) but a fair number remained at BJU.

It’s a one-way street, though. Fundy raised kids are streaming to evangelical schools. Very few evangelicals are clamoring for fundy education.

Wow, so sorry to hear about this! I have taken 20 credits toward a D.Min. there and have been so impressed with the godliness of the people there and the quality of the education they have provided.

On a different note, I am NOT impressed with on-line education. It hasn’t been around long enough to judge, but what I see is that people dabble in taking classes here and there, but what percentage finish a degree compared to those who start work on a degree in a classroom? And, from a Christian perspective, Christian schools can end up graduating students they have never met and know little about. A man in my church has an ex-wife who committed adultery on him twice, married the second man she committed adultery with, and all along has been working on an Ed.D. from Liberty, almost completely on-line.

[Jim]

Since:

The primary factor influencing this historic decision is declining enrollment which produces a disproportionate reliance on contributed revenue for our general operations budget. We can point to any number of factors for the decline: rising student college debt, the multiplication of other good seminaries, the fact that we do not offer a fully online degree, etc. All our best efforts to reverse the decline have met with disappointing results.

AND since there have been other threads (that are still open) discussing the pros and cons of online education Let’s not take this thread in the direction of pros & cons of online education. Thanks

Jim, the availability of online education is a major factor in the decline in enrollment. This was recognized in the paragraph you quoted.

[Jeff Straub]

James:

Several comments are in order.

1. The very nature of your question suggests that you have never been to seminary or you would know the answer to this question, at least in part.
2. Online education is not new and it does have merit in some cases but there are many things online education cannot do. I took Emergency Medical Technician training in the mid 80s via computer in an early “online” program. But I still needed to attend some training days to do hand-ons training. In the same way, teaching the Synoptic Problem can be accomplished via the computer, but I am not sure how you would teach expository preaching without a classroom. Certainly one could learn a bit of theory, but the practical application would be limited. Ok, so leave that to the churches … well, I am not sure many pastors are equipped to train other men to preach. This does not mean necessarily that the seminary prof is better, but chapel for example, gives us an opportunity to bring in men who model the expository pattern. Central, long before I got here, produced some very capable preachers of the Word, many of whom speak in our chapel.
3. I think that there is something fundamentally missing in online education that 2 Tim. 2:2 addresses. Education for ministry is more than learning a set of facts about the Bible. It is one saved sinner encouraging another saved sinner in the work of the ministry. I really wonder if Jesus were alive today, if he would choose a video monitor over his ancient discipleship method. I wonder if Paul would do this either. Ministerial training is life on life and this simply cannot be done on a video terminal.
4. As far as moving families to go to school, I have done this twice. It is not for the faint of heart and no one said it would be easy. But the rewards have paid me personally in riches dividends. Sitting under Rolland McCune, et al and Tom Nettles, et al would have been decidedly different if all I ever saw of them was pixels. It’s hard to have a cup of coffee with pixels or to share a blessing or a burden with a video screen.

Now none of this should be taken as any sort of criticism for those who do online or video education. We have talked about doing it at Central and I see Detroit is launching a program soon. More power to them. Liberty is a master at doing this. But I really hope that ministerial training doesn’t become ONLY online training. Our churches will be the poorer for it!

By the way, I taught 32 men in Africa this summer. Would have been a whole lot cheaper to stay home and look at a computer screen or video feed. But the experience of meeting them and interacting with them, eating with them, fellowshipping with them, etc. was profound. Nothing quite like students in a classroom setting!

I will grant that video education is much better than online and I jumbled this post a bit conflating the two. I think my essential point remains … there is something about a classroom setting that is lost if the professor and the students are not in the same airspace.

Jeff Straub

Wow, where to begin? I will match the points:

1. I have been, the elitist tone noted as well.

2. This is about seminary, not medical work. I don’t want a brain surgeon with an online degree, but no one is saying that. So a man should pack up his family and life because the church he attends doesn’t have anyone qualified to teach on how to preach? What exactly do you need for that that the online course can’t teach? Is it a group of critics giving grades to their fellow students? Is it the need to keep the doors open? Wait, I am getting ahead of myself. The chapel services are great, but I can catch those on my Ipod years back from many different seminaries. Also, how is it these pastors are so inept anyway? Who are these seminaries churning out? These Central grads who speak in chapel, do they also go around to the various churches and help out the inept pastors or do they only serve the seminary?

3. 2 Tim 2:2, the verse found within a pastoral epistle about how to disciple and train up the men within the church is now about a seminary? I probably wouldn’t have figured that out from an online education. Jesus is alive today (learned in online education), but He isn’t walking the earth. You seem to think He would send people to a seminary over learning in their church I think is what you are saying.

4. I don’t condemn this, but your rationale is weak. Of course it would be great to have coffee with influential leaders. However, I am to bear the burdens of those within my church. I shouldn’t have to look elsewhere. If I need to, then my church has cancer.

Unnumbered paragraphs will be given a point number.

5. Churches will be poorer? Churches shouldn’t have to send their young men away to get an education and ministry training. That is to be done within the church. What exactly is going on that seminaries churn out these men too inept to train their own church so they in turn have to send them to a seminary? It reminds me of toy companies who make the toys too cheap to have lasting value. You have to just buy another toy when it breaks, and it will break soon. It is almost like the seminaries need this to happen because they have to keep the doors open.

6. Great job. That sounds like a wonderful time. How much better if it had been from church to church rather than parachurch to whatever the group was. Ecclessiology is important. I realize the culture of fundyism which stresses the need for a proper education (ironic isn’t it considering the NE complaint so many decades ago).

7. I agree. Let’s get the professors out of the classrooms and into the churches. Of course to do that, doors would close. The statement for Central is “For the church. For the gospel.” Let’s do it for the church then.

Frankly, what is happening at Calvary is a good thing.

James, you can sure be exasperating …

1. many good and godly men in vocational ministry are simply ill equipped to teach some subjects like Greek and Hebrew.
2. your comments fly in the face of nearly 400 yrs of Baptist history. We have collectively seen the compelling need for special places to train men for ministry. Some pastors have not the time to train others, some have not the ability, some have not the inclination.
3. So in what church did Jesus mentor the disciples?
4. i am not saying that no one can be trained by a local church. But you seem to argue that no one should go to seminary. So Calvary’s closing is a good thing, eh? Strikes me as being rather uncharitable.

JS

Historically Baptist churches have seen themselves as part of a collective, not solo acts. Few churches can do all that needs to be done—from ministerial training to foreign mission evangelism—without the cooperative support of other like-minded churches.

It’s hard to have a cup of coffee with pixels or to share a blessing or a burden with a video screen.

At the same time, if we are talking face-to face in settings like modules, that benefit, while not completely pushed aside, isn’t as significant. In my online courses I am finishing with BBS Clarks Summit, I have had at least as much direct interaction with my profs in ministry and personal issues as I have as a module student at Central (and that’s no knock on Central profs- I just found the BBS profs to be fairly engaged in the online format, and taking full advantage of the capabilities the medium afforded them). Also, if one was only able to get spiritual counsel from professors, that would be one thing. However, I would presume that online students would still be seeking out personal interaction in local church environments where those benefits would be more meaningful (and give opportunity to give as well as receive) than intermittent interaction for a semester or two.

Greg, Funny you should mention interaction in modules. I was just going to write about how much significant interaction I received in them. In fact, this is one of the areas that really stands out in my memories of seminary. It was fascinating to me to see the interaction of young, full-time students with older pastors returning for a week of refreshment, along with missionaries on furlough, men from para-church ministries, etc. Rich memories… The donuts were good too :)

As to the overall value of seminary, a tired debate that seems to be rekindled here, I went and I can tell you firsthand that there is no debate. No, we are not learning to do brain surgery. But then again brain surgeons are not learning to exegete the Scriptures from the original languages, with the perspective of historical and systematic theology as background. A good seminary is a community of scholars, training together in the spirit of 2 Tim. 2:2. I have yet to be in any church that provided such an atmosphere. Perhaps that is the Biblical ideal, but it is not the actual reality.

I am working on an online bible undergrad with intention of moving the family for my MDiv. Will it be tough? Yes, but I believe classroom is the best choice for me. I didn’t know that Detroit is planning an online program. That’s interesting since I have considered it but I will still probably move. I will probably end up at Central or Detroit and my prayer is that they will both still be around when I am ready.

[Jeff Straub]

James, you can sure be exasperating …

1. many good and godly men in vocational ministry are simply ill equipped to teach some subjects like Greek and Hebrew.
2. your comments fly in the face of nearly 400 yrs of Baptist history. We have collectively seen the compelling need for special places to train men for ministry. Some pastors have not the time to train others, some have not the ability, some have not the inclination.
3. So in what church did Jesus mentor the disciples?
4. i am not saying that no one can be trained by a local church. But you seem to argue that no one should go to seminary. So Calvary’s closing is a good thing, eh? Strikes me as being rather uncharitable.

JS

1. Is that it then? Go to seminary to learn Greek and Hebrew? So when a seminary has to justify its existence as the premier place for Christ’s church to survive the next generation, you fall back to the languages? Jeff, to learn languages, you could go anywhere.

2. And you sigh at me. Problem: the church isn’t doing the job. Solution: create a program to do the job for the church. How can you seriously say that some pastors don’t have the time to train others? THAT. IS. THEIR. JOB. How can you seriously say that some do not have the ability? THEY. ARE. NOT. QUALIFIED. How can you seriously say that some don’t have the inclination? THEY. ARE. DERELICT. What exactly is that M.Div. worth if you can’t do any of the above? Nothing more than access to a right to be heard I suppose.

3. You better than to be childish. Jesus trained his disciples first hand. Those disciples then taught/trained the churches. If a training facility other than the church needed to exist, the apostles were ignorant of it. It wasn’t as though such things didn’t exist for other subjects.

4. I have not said anything about people not going to seminary. I am arguing against the elitist, and unbiblical mindset that people need to go to seminary. As for Calvary, in a time of economic difficulties, would it be better for Calvary to continue to limp along or to close down and allow the precious resources to be used elsewhere? At the end of the day, seminaries are businesses. You need money to stay open. Call that uncharitable if you want. Hopefully schools will take notice of this. Information is too fast and too easy to access.

[Paul J. Scharf]

Greg, Funny you should mention interaction in modules. I was just going to write about how much significant interaction I received in them. In fact, this is one of the areas that really stands out in my memories of seminary. It was fascinating to me to see the interaction of young, full-time students with older pastors returning for a week of refreshment, along with missionaries on furlough, men from para-church ministries, etc. Rich memories… The donuts were good too :)

I’m not saying the interaction isn’t significant, or wasn’t positive for you, or objecting to your fond memories. I’m just observing that interaction isn’t the downside of online some seem to be portraying it to be.

In my experience, too, the more significant relationships in ministry come when you forge relationships around cooperative efforts. I am thankful for pastors I have worked with in camping ministry, church associations, inter-church efforts like a Bible institute, and so on. In the process of working together, you end up getting to talk about side or unrelated issues, drawing on experiences and sharing your own. You also can use technology (like a phone or email) to connect with each other even when you aren’t working together at the moment, but there is an issue you need to talk through.

Again, that isn’t to disparage seminary relationship experiences. I’m just observing that if you don’t get that face-to-face interaction with a prof and students, that isn’t necessarily a detriment that will scar you for life or permanently impede your ministry. These things can be overcome. In fact, I would argue that the relationships I have personally forged through online interaction (not online classes) over the years have left me much richer as far as people I can draw upon (and people I have been able to help) than anything I ever got in Bible college or seminary.

Just to clarify something about what DBTS is doing…

It will not be an online program. We are running a pilot program with a view to establishing a few, select remote campuses where students would attend class along with our resident students and profs via a video system. It is a system being used by many (including major) universities and provides full interaction capability between the classrooms.

We are committed to helping local churches equip men for ministry. This new venture allows us to provide a service for local churches away from metro Detroit that will help them equip men. Assuming the pilot proves successful, men from the area near the partner churches would have the option of staying/returning home for seminary classes while being mentored by their pastors. Because they are tapping into what we are already doing it adds no strain and makes no changes to our current program.

As a pastor and educator, it is disappointing to see a sister institution close its doors, but I have to say that “the sky is falling” mindset in some of the comments above is misguided. It really doesn’t do much good to offer simplistic answers to complex questions, and why schools stay open or close is a complex question.