Man Facing Jail For Hosting Home Bible Study

Larry,

Salman has been has been fighting that very question. They do not apply inthis situation except for the state manipualting and misappling them. That’s the abuse, not the regulations themselves. That’s what I have been arguing from the beginning. If Salman’s group decided to incorporate as a church, buy property, and build a church building, I would expect them to follow all the commercial zoning laws or face the consequences. That’s not the case here. A group of people are gathering in a private home, following ALL of the residential zoning codes. The state has arbitrarilly declared them a commercial endeavor and charged them with failure to follow commercial zoning codes. That’s the abuse.

Jay,

I agree - with your last post that is. Thanks for the discussion.

Would you agree with these two points (they are general and not specific about this case)

1. The state has a right to develop and enforce building codes … even for religious organizations
2. The state has a right to develop and enforce zoning … even for religious organizations

• I have my own building code story. I did some wiring in my garage … outlets … garage lights on the front of my house … garage lights on the ceiling. When I sold the house, the prospective buyer had the home inspected. None of my electrical work was done according to code. All had to be remediated prior to sale. Ouch … lesson learned!
• Not being specific but I’ve heard of many different zoning cases relating to churches and schools …. for example: how close a gun store may be to a church or school / or adult entertainment (porno shops) / or bars. Or the ratio of parking spots to occupancy
• With regard to personal residences: A hypothetically ridiculous illustration. My neighbor cannot bulldoze his home and build a gas station there. There are gas stations in my community and there is land that could be developed for a gas station … but not next door to Jim

The case of Kent Hovind is instructive. Before his tax issues (the events which culminated in his incarceration), his Dinosaur Adventure Land had code and zoning issues. Some characterized his problem as persecution.

I don’t think we have enough information to assume that they are following their zoning codes. They would automatically be in violation if they were in Beavercreek OH. Gatherings over a certain # of people requires a permit, regular gatherings require a permit or are just not allowed. If I had Tupperware/Pampered Chef/Mary Kay parties every Tuesday, I’d be in violation. If I had a garage sale once a month, I’d be in violation. If we build an outbuilding, the permit clearly asks you what you will be using the building for, so iIf you know you are going to use the building to meet as a church-ish group, you have to put that on the app.

Long gone are the days when you can start a church in your garage. I guess I find it very believable that they are violating zoning codes because I live in an area that is rather strict. Because we live on a corner, we have 2 ‘front yards’. So last year when we put up our above ground pool, it was a couple of feet into our ‘side/front yard’, so we had to take it down and move it over. We have signage requirements for things like garage sales. You can’t have too many cars regularly parked in your driveway. If you have a pool more than 3’ feet deep, it has to be surrounded by a 6’ gated locked fence. Dogs must be walked on a leash. I could go on and on and on…

The number of people and frequency of the gathering is what has them in violation, from what I can tell. I’ve just looked through many of the zoning plans for Phoenix here- http://phoenix.gov/pdd/devcode/ordinances/index.html. This isn’t a few people occasionally gathering for a Bible study. They’ve been meeting regularly for a long time, and their numbers have grown beyond what the area can bear.

Ultimately, it is our duty as Christians to make sure we are in compliance in every area. The state is not in violation of Scripture for enforcing zoning ordinances.

This almost sounds like someone complaining that they were ticketed for speeding when they were just keeping up with other traffic. Too bad- speeding is speeding, and if you are the one to get pulled over, pay the ticket already. So what if everyone else in neighborhood is playing poker every Tuesday- if these people are in violation, then they are in violation. 1-800-BOO-HOOO.

To follow up on my hypothetically ridiculous illustration of the gas station next door.

OK would Jim want a Bible study next door? Answer “yes” and “no”.

• A semi-regular group of people of the smallish number (say 6 cars parked out front). Yes … GREAT … go for it.
• What if my neighbor were a cultist (Mormon, J/W, etc.). Wouldn’t bother me if it were a smallish number / semi-regular group (it’s a free society …. good for them!)
• A large group meeting weekly. 60 people may equal 30 cars! I don’t care how doctrinally pure they are it would negatively impact my own property rights. I would be opposed to it.

Thanks for the link. If any one of the commenters haven’t read it in full, please do so. It is very informative. It appears the City is not the problem, but rather this guy and his attitude. He is clearly in violation of laws and the city is attempting to work with him. I’m not sure he is of a spirit that works with people, but rather it must always be his way. These kind of problems are definitly not drawing people to Christ, but rather turning them way. If this is what Christ does for someone, then why would they want to have Christ in their life.

This was right in my proverbial back yard -

Before anyone questions the value of building codes, this is worth a read

Residential building codes have a lower standard than code for building where people assemble:

• My home for example doesn’t need to have a sprinkler system, does not need to be ADA compliant, etc. I have a raised deck … works great for say a dozen people. But if I had some # more the deck could collapse
• Building codes are our friends.

[Jim]

Would you agree with these two points (they are general and not specific about this case)

1. The state has a right to develop and enforce building codes … even for religious organizations
2. The state has a right to develop and enforce zoning … even for religious organizations

Yes

[Susan R] This almost sounds like someone complaining that they were ticketed for speeding when they were just keeping up with other traffic.

I think a better analogy is the CA interstates where semis have a different speed limit than the rest of traffic and this guy was given a speeding ticket for exceeding the semi limit because he had a pick-up full of aluminum cans and was pulling a uhaul trailer full of more aluminum cans so the officer arbitrarily deemed him a semi and applied the semi laws even though he was still within the speed limit for pick up traffic.

[Jim]

To follow up on my hypothetically ridiculous illustration of the gas station next door.

OK would Jim want a Bible study next door? Answer “yes” and “no”.

• A semi-regular group of people of the smallish number (say 6 cars parked out front). Yes … GREAT … go for it.
• What if my neighbor were a cultist (Mormon, J/W, etc.). Wouldn’t bother me if it were a smallish number / semi-regular group (it’s a free society …. good for them!)
• A large group meeting weekly. 60 people may equal 30 cars! I don’t care how doctrinally pure they are it would negatively impact my own property rights. I would be opposed to it.

You’re making my point. These are not regular lots in a regular housing subdivision. He doesnt have even one car parked out front on the street. He has 4.5 acres and all cars are being parked on the property according to the story.

[Jim]

This was right in my proverbial back yard -

Before anyone questions the value of building codes, this is worth a read

Residential building codes have a lower standard than code for building where people assemble:

• My home for example doesn’t need to have a sprinkler system, does not need to be ADA compliant, etc. I have a raised deck … works great for say a dozen people. But if I had some # more the deck could collapse
• Building codes are our friends.

Jim,

I have said repeatedly, I don’t have a problem with building codes or with the state’s biblical right to make and enforce codes. The codes themselves are not the problem here, it is the bait and switch being applied to this particular home owner that becomes an abuse of power and persecution of religion.

I really think we are on the same page and agree on the main points

You, living in AZ, are closer to the details than I am. You make good points on the details.

“We started worshipping in that building every weekend.” This is a quote from the aritcle which to me sound alot like a church, i.e. regular meetings every weekend in a seperate building than your home. If he was doing this in his home, that would be one thing. To actually build a seperate bulding and have regular meetings there, worship meetings by your own admission, reasonably changes that from being used as a home and the rules you have to abide by.

Also scripture is pretty clear about giving up our rights for the sake of the gospel. What kind of redemptive relationship will this pastor have with those firemen he kicked of his property when they were only doing their job?

They do not apply inthis situation except for the state manipualting and misappling them. That’s the abuse, not the regulations themselves. That’s what I have been arguing from the beginning.

Except the authorities say they do apply, and the Bible says to submit to them in order to silence the ignorance of foolish men.

If Salman’s group decided to incorporate as a church …

They did: Harvest Christian Fellowship Church as one of the articles I linked to said.

A group of people are gathering in a private home, following ALL of the residential zoning codes.

A group of 50+ people are meeting every week in a large building with a pulpit, chairs, and a cross for the purpose of listening to a pastor teach the Bible and worship together.

But again, all of that aside, 1 Peter 2:13 seems clear. Salman has a biblical obligation to silence these foolish men by submitting to their authority.

Larry, if we are going to follow the whole counsel of scripture instead of isolating passages, doesn’t the biblical principles of justice and private ownership come into play here, if the government is actually abusing the legal code?

You should really read that link Larry posted of the article in the Phoenix Times. I fully understand that not everything in the media is completely accurate (how’s that for an understatement), but if the situation is even close to how it’s portrayed this guy is a real piece of work.