Man Facing Jail For Hosting Home Bible Study

Already answered that in post 15 Jay.

50-60 people meeting in a building that you told the officials you were building as a game room/recreational building? That was a lie. Scout meetings don’t have 50-60 people meeting at someone’s house. There is no bribery here. They have laws about what can be built where and what a building can be used for. Would you feel the same way if he was using the building as a bar? I think not. His problem is he lied on the permits and built a building to host a lot of people while failing to meet federal, state, and local laws. This was not a small group of 15-20 people meeting once weekly to study God’s Word and fellowship. Again, we are specifically told in scripture to obey all athority not just the ones we like or agree with.

I don’t see anything wrong with Salman fighting this abuse of power in court.

What I agree with: “I don’t see anything wrong with Salman fighting this … in court”

What I don’t: I don’t see this as an “abuse of power”

[Chip Van Emmerik]

Already answered that in post 15 Jay.

Maybe I’m being dense, but I don’t see it and don’t see how ‘rendering to Caesar’ is even applicable here, unless you are trying to say that Salman has already taken care of his legal requirements? I’m confused by your reply.

I’m agreement with Michelle - if he lied (or misstated) the purpose of his building on the permit - knowing full well that he intended to use it for religious gatherings when he reported it as a ‘game room / rec. building’ - then he deceived the state and deserves whatever penalty he gets. That’s not persecution, that’s being stupid.

So Chip, I wonder how you would apply 1 Peter 2:13-15 to this situation. It seems pretty relevant.

Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

Even if we make the argument that the government is acting foolishly by acting unfairly, this verse tells us how to silence them, doesn’t it?

Why bring disrepute on the gospel and the church over a few exit signs and providing access to disabled persons? Is that really worth $12,000 and sixty days in prison not to mention bad press that makes it sound like churches are trying to get a free pass?

Just a side note Larry, but do you have any idea the costs involved in bringing a building up to commercial code? They only mentioned a couple of the specifics among the 67 citations, but commercial codes will include all things ADA (think outdoor and indoor ramps, bathroom inclusions and configurations, hallway and door way sizes, etc) as well as parking lot requirements (including number of spaces based on occupancy rating, lighting, and usually paving) and landscaping (specific numbers of trees and plants, rock or grass surround, irrigation of some sort). We’re talking about a lot more than a couple exit signs, and, yes, I think the cost would far exceed the $12k he is facing in fines/penalties.

I do not think 1 Peter 2 or any other passage means we cannot challenge abusive government. We are a nation of laws. No one, including government officials, is supposed to be above the law. Now, I would say, for sake of argument, if Salmen were to go all the way to the Supreme Court and lose, he should surrender and submit. But as long as legal, viable avenues remain available for pursuing justice, I do not think he errs morally to fight the abuse of power.

Chip, I’m still confused. Why are you considering this as an abuse of power?

@ Jay and Larry - see post 5

[Chip Van Emmerik]

@ Jay and Larry - see post 5

Re: post 5

If you want to have friends over for poker night every week (regardless of how many as long as the parking and noise were not a problem), you would not have an issue.

Response: Speculation

It does look to me like he is violating city ordinances. We live in an area where we have to have a permit for swimming pools over a certain size, fences in front yards must be less than 4’ tall, and you can’t have ‘regular’ anything- such as regular garage sales. Too many garage sales and you are running a resale business.

Regular organized meetings that involve large groups of people that are not family would also violate our zoning laws. Our neighborhood could not handle the traffic or parking, and it wasn’t meant to. That’s why it is zoned residential. AAMOF, we have to have a permit for any large gathering, much less a regularly scheduled meeting.

This is not ‘persecution’, and it looks too much like a guy being obtuse and obstinate. Christians are NOT above the law, and we have far too many freedoms in America to go out looking for ways to start a ruckus and claim discrimination. ‘Wise as serpents, harmless as doves’- note how bulldozers are not used as an analogy.

[Chip Van Emmerik]

It’s not about zoning laws at all. If you want to have friends over for poker night every week (regardless of how many as long as the parking and noise were not a problem), you would not have an issue. There is only a problem here because the government has declared them a church (even though they are not officially constituted and deny being a church) and therefore apply commercial codes to the meetings. It’s ridiculous and abusive.

Jay,

Did you look at the picture of the sign. No organizational name. No invitation to meetings. Only a simple message, “There is always hope with Jesus.” I live in a smaller, very conservative town where signs like this pop up all the time - especially at Easter and Christmas, though some of them are at least semi-permenant.

Furthermore, what about any other regular church meetings. My church used to have small group meetings on Sunday nights in various homes. Happened every week. Is that also a commerial meeting that should be shut down by the state? Of course, the state has nothing to say about the scout meetings happening every week in the house down the street, but hey, that’s not a church group, right?

Jim,

You might think it’s speculation, except all kinds of regular meetings happen in neighborhoods all over the country (scout meetings are a perfect analogy here), including Phoenix, and this is the only one being singled out. In case you missed it in my profile, I live here in AZ. I lived in the Phx metro area for 25 years, until last August when I moved 90 miles north to a smaller community. Most of mine and my wife’s families are still scattered around the Valley of the Sun. When I lived in Queen Creek (rural edges of Phx metro), we had regular neighborhood meetings to discuss irrigation schedules and homeowner association business. Why isn’t that a commerical meeting?

You said abusive. How is it abusive to apply zoning laws? Isn’t there a big difference between enforcing zoning laws and being abusive?

The only question is whether or not these are legitimate zoning laws, and so far, no one has questioned their legitimacy. They simply question their application. The fact that might be unfairly enforced (might be, as Jim said, it is speculation otherwise) is irrelevant. Laws are quite frequently unfairly enforced. But getting stopped for speeding and appealing that everyone is doing it won’t help much.

Here’s a piece that might be helpful: http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-01-17/news/michael-salman-wants-to-…

This article even says it is incorporated as a church.

I agree that he has the legal right to pursue this. I don’t think he has biblical grounds to do so, at least so far as I can see.

Chip, we’re just going to have to disagree on this, I think. Appreciate your replies.