Have we made an idol of the worship experience and missed our Lord’s ideal of true worship?
I cannot even conceive of the type of worship experience this writer describes. I am so cut off from adoration of “celebrity” Pastors and scholars, or concert-esque worship, that I have no frame of reference. I suspect I’m increasingly isolated from younger fundamentalists in this regard. There is a compulsion towards both hero-worship and “bigger and better” worship experiences which frankly disgusts me.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Amen Tyler
Pastor Mike Harding
[TylerR]I cannot even conceive of the type of worship experience this writer describes. I am so cut off from adoration of “celebrity” Pastors and scholars, or concert-esque worship, that I have no frame of reference. I suspect I’m increasingly isolated from younger fundamentalists in this regard. There is a compulsion towards both hero-worship and “bigger and better” worship experiences which frankly disgusts me.
4 sentences. 6 personal pronouns. Condescending humblebrag. How can you even be disgusted with things of which you can’t conceive? Sounds like the logical love child of agnosticism and theistic ontology. Perhaps you should interact with the article and not yourself.
Brooks point was well thought out, and an example of the current shift in evangelicalism. The more thoughtful conservatives are moving away from the production glitz and glamor having seen it for what it is.
You misunderstand me. I am not attacking the author of the article. I was remarking that I have no frame of reference to the type of worship experience he is attacking. He is likely coming from a background where the church service may have a tendency to be style vice substance.
What, exactly, annoyed you so much about my post?
- Is it my distaste for what you term “production glitz and glamor?” It sounds like you agree with it.
The more thoughtful conservatives are moving away from the production glitz and glamor having seen it for what it is.
- Do you not like my jab about “hero-worship?”
- Perhaps you are reading into my writing and think I’m just an arrogant guy:
Condescending humblebrag
This is not the case. I simply have a strong aversion to the “worship” in far too many contemporary churches. You seem to be familiar with expressing strong opinions, yourself, so I’m sure you understand what I mean. If you wish to attack me publicly, at least do it right and explain your problem. Contact me by PM if you wish to pursue this matter further.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
I’ll stay out of the fray between you two, but as another observer, I’ll say that your statements are a bit of an oxymoron. If you truly “cannot conceive of the type of worship experience this writer describes,” then how can your observations about “hero worship” and “bigger and better” have any hope of applying to the situation at all? If you have no frame of reference, then by definition your observations don’t apply.
I suspect you actually *can* conceive of what this type of worship entails, but cannot conceive of taking part in it yourself. It’s generally better if we speak to what we know, rather than things we cannot conceive of.
(And I say all this as someone who would rather have a liturgical-type, high worship than even what passes for reverent in most fundamental churches, so to say I am not a fan of contemporary worship services would be an understatement, but I have to be careful in what I speak against, unless I have some experience.)
Dave Barnhart
I stand corrected on my use of English. I must confess I also misspell a word every now and then, too …
to say I am not a fan of contemporary worship services would be an understatement, but I have to be careful in what I speak against, unless I have some experience
I have experienced contemporary worship, long ago. I would not participate in it now. I personally believe it is dishonoring to God, especially if the show becomes more important than the substance, as the author of the article suggests. I would also suggest that you don’t need personal experience to criticize something.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
I agree with Tyler 100%.
Gotta love the discussions here on Sharper Iron! Where nit-piking, over-reading, and hyper-analyzing of a person’s comment happens. Nothing like asking good ‘ol fashioned questions such as “Did you mean this?,” or “What did you mean by …?”
[TylerR]I grant that’s true. But if you don’t have *any* good knowledge of it, then to criticize it is largely an exercise in futility, if not foolishness.However, like you, I would consider 2nd-hand knowledge good enough for criticism *if* you trust the source.I would also suggest that you don’t need personal experience to criticize something.
Dave Barnhart
Tyler,
First, I don’t misunderstand you. I knew you were not disagreeing with Brook’s article.
Second, to make a tongue in cheek observation regarding the self-centricity and logical fallacy of your comments is not an attack. It was a hyperbolic touch of satire. In this case your comment came across like the Pharisee in Luke 18: 9 - 14. That is not to impugn your motives, but if you’re gonna put statements out here on a forum, you have to expect some differing observations.
[mmartin]Generally I agree with you on this, but since there was a bit of something brewing, and because one of my functions as moderator is to provide clarity and cool things down, I decided to go ahead and answer Tyler.Had I been just a regular poster, I would not have bothered to write a response to Tyler at all, let alone written dmicah’s response. I can understand the confusion, though.Gotta love the discussions here on Sharper Iron! Where nit-piking, over-reading, and hyper-analyzing of a person’s comment happens. Nothing like asking good ‘ol fashioned questions such as “Did you mean this?,” or “What did you mean by …?”
Dave Barnhart
Micah - no worries
Back to the subject, I read an article by Ken Ham in a copy of his Answers magazine recently. He was lamenting that the music was frequently overshadowing the preaching at many churches he does presentations at. He related a very sad story about one church where he had only 20 mins to do his presentation, because the Music Pastor went over time with the “worship service.” The lead Pastor told Ken Ham he tries to reign in the Music Pastor, but it usually doesn’t work. How shallow some church services must be. It makes me sad to read about this kind of thing.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Tyler,
I read the article by Ham which you posted. Demonstrates that much of church worship is entertainment driven with little time for God’s Word. The songs according to Ham are not even teaching and admonishing one another with Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs. You have exhausted and distracted saints who are in no mood for a sermon of substance and length.
Pastor Mike Harding
Good article by Ham.
It goes to show, in my opinion, that very often the same people that routinely fuss at Fundies for making music such a big issue … . are the same people that make music such a big issue - as illustrated by Ham.
I would have imagined the “more thoughtful conservatives” would have avoided that freshly paved, unmarked, winding road to begin with - before they realized they had gotten lost and needed to turn around. But, I’ll stop imagining now. :)
[dmicah]Your exaggerated description of Tyler’s post comes across, ironically, as you described his. We’re counting personal pronouns now? LOL.Personally, and toward the article, I find the entertainment big top and always trying to get higher and higher (toward what I am not so sure) to have infected Evangelicalism far more than historical Protestantism or even fundamentalism. Groups like TGC, while out of one side of their mouth talk of sound liturgy and avoiding carnal elements in worship also embrace and promote them within their community of fellowship and celebrated personalities/ministers out of the other side. In the end good for the author to be in the process of this enlightenment.Tyler,
First, I don’t misunderstand you. I knew you were not disagreeing with Brook’s article.
Second, to make a tongue in cheek observation regarding the self-centricity and logical fallacy of your comments is not an attack. It was a hyperbolic touch of satire. In this case your comment came across like the Pharisee in Luke 18: 9 - 14. That is not to impugn your motives, but if you’re gonna put statements out here on a forum, you have to expect some differing observations.
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