"As hellfire receded, there advanced the literal fires of the crematorium."
You can point back to tradition to support a lot of things. I never really understood why people were printing tracts about this in the 70s and getting all worked up, though. We’re all going to return to dust some day (unless the rapture happens first); does it matter if that process is immediate (cremation), hastened (sarcophagus), or naturally slow (burial)? In the end we get new bodies anyway. I thought the only people who were careful not to damage the body after death so it could enjoy a relatively intact afterlife were the pagans.
And what are the doctrinal implications of organ and body donation? Not to mention [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_farm] body farms[/URL]. Also interesting to read is the book [URL=http://www.maryroach.net/stiff.html Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers[/URL] by Mary Roach. Is the use of human bodies to practice surgical procedures or study impact forces in automobile crashes a ‘desecration’? Or is it putting to good use something that is essentially useless?
Now, all we need is a thread on music, and it will have been a busy day here at SI :)
[Pastor Joe Roof] Now, all we need is a thread on music, and it will have been a busy day here at SI :)
Lol. You want me to start one? I could ask about the transition from “worldly” to “folk” to “hymn tune” that some songs go through and then ask how long it is before we wind up with a hymn tune named “Lennon.” I’m sure that would be a fun topic! :D
[Susan R] Or is it putting to good use something that is essentially useless?Interestingly enough I’ve heard the same arguments advanced for why fetal stem cells harvested from an aborted or still-born fetus shouldn’t be off-limits to researchers. Just sayin’ - I do agree with you but people that I’ve talked with about this tend to put a disconnect there.
Ultimately the body is only a temporary host for the “real you.” The Bible makes it clear that at death, the soul and body part ways; one goes to the spiritual realm and the other returns to the dust from whence it came. While I’m all for being sensitive to the emotions surrounding death, and I certainly wouldn’t advocate disrespectfully desecrating a body, I personally am OK with someone using my shell to help others in some way.
Our church secretary received a liver transplant 10 years ago. This created a practical dilemma: When we count attendance on Sunday, does she count for one or two persons? Is part of a body an entire person, a fraction, or nominal. We decided to count what was visible; even babies in the womb have to surface first.
No, we didn’t have a discussion about this, but it would have been fun!
No, we didn’t have a discussion about this, but it would have been fun!
"The Midrash Detective"
[mounty] You can point back to tradition to support a lot of things. I never really understood why people were printing tracts about this in the 70s and getting all worked up, though. We’re all going to return to dust some day (unless the rapture happens first); does it matter if that process is immediate (cremation), hastened (sarcophagus), or naturally slow (burial)? In the end we get new bodies anyway. I thought the only people who were careful not to damage the body after death so it could enjoy a relatively intact afterlife were the pagans.Why treat sick babies? I mean, if they die, most of us believe they precede the age of accountability and will be in heaven, anyway, right?
Why save up for retirement? I mean, the return of Jesus is imminent, right? Especially if you are a missionary!
Why spend a lot of time caring about personal health? Absent from the body is present with the Lord, right? We’re gonna die anyway, might as well enjoy it while we’re here!
Okay, I’m being foolish here. But at the same time, if it matters how we live and treat the body while it is alive, does the way we treat it after death become of no consequence? I mean, if we really are going to turn to dust someday, why even bother with cremation? Let’s compost and see our bodies do some real good as natural fertilizer!
The Bible clearly teaches the resurrection of the body. While I don’t think Scripture allows us to be dogmatically insistent on this matter, I don’t think it allows us to be flippant about how we treat the body for burial, either.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
I hardly think cremation is being flippant, nor is being an organ donor or any other “useful” (and I agree that’s maybe not the best word) idea mentioned here. To be “flippant” is to “[lack] proper respect or seriousness.” None of the funerals I’ve ever attended, including the ones where the deceased was cremated, could come close to being described as disrespectful or frivolous.
Also, I dunno about everyone else but I’m only talking about the mechanics of physical decay after death, whether or not it should be accelerated, and if so, how. No one’s talking about actively neglecting the body during life. Pretty sure any kid who’s ever used the “but I’m just going to sleep in my bed again tonight!” excuse to get out of making it in the morning knows how that argument ends up. :)
So Greg, just a side question given one of your comments…how do you see the bodily resurrection taking place?
Also, I dunno about everyone else but I’m only talking about the mechanics of physical decay after death, whether or not it should be accelerated, and if so, how. No one’s talking about actively neglecting the body during life. Pretty sure any kid who’s ever used the “but I’m just going to sleep in my bed again tonight!” excuse to get out of making it in the morning knows how that argument ends up. :)
So Greg, just a side question given one of your comments…how do you see the bodily resurrection taking place?
I am not sure, to answer your question. That being said, I am sure that it will be a bodily resurrection, whatever that means. I see in Scripture that what happened to the body after death was of no small consequence to the point that Israel was left with instructions to take Joseph’s bones to the Promised Land, a fact which is highlighted in Hebrews 11.
That being said, I will say I am signed up as an organ donor, and I have done funerals for people who were cremated- actually, I think a simple majority of the funerals I have done have involved cremations. However, I don’t think it’s a good trend, and I do advise against it when I am asked. I think Russell Moore’s article[URL=http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-01-024-v] “Grave Signs” [/URL] is a good resource to recommend if someone wants to read why (and see how the Bible addresses the matter, and what it leaves open).
I’m not saying cremation is necessarily flippant. However, I am saying the way you treated those who favor burial and think cremation unwise was somewhat flippant. I don’t think you have to agree, but you appear to dismiss the conversation rather quickly.
That being said, I will say I am signed up as an organ donor, and I have done funerals for people who were cremated- actually, I think a simple majority of the funerals I have done have involved cremations. However, I don’t think it’s a good trend, and I do advise against it when I am asked. I think Russell Moore’s article[URL=http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-01-024-v] “Grave Signs” [/URL] is a good resource to recommend if someone wants to read why (and see how the Bible addresses the matter, and what it leaves open).
I’m not saying cremation is necessarily flippant. However, I am saying the way you treated those who favor burial and think cremation unwise was somewhat flippant. I don’t think you have to agree, but you appear to dismiss the conversation rather quickly.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
Just a consequence of being convinced. :) Seriously though, my radar does start pinging anytime someone brings out the “not many people think this is a controversy but here’s why it is!” line of reasoning. I haven’t yet seen scriptural proof that cremation is out of bounds for believers and I didn’t see any in the OP. Just a lot of arguing from 1st century practice (and there’s already a thread going on that debate) and other cultural considerations. I’m not trying to dismiss or belittle, but we both would agree, I think (based on your comments), that it’s not a case of one interpretation of scripture vs. another. To me, that knocks it down a peg or two on the importance scale. If I came off as dismissive or belittling it certainly wasn’t intentional; I know it is a big issue to some. I just think it doesn’t need to be *as* big an issue as the OP makes it out to be. You gotta admit - that title is a bit over-the-top…
I don’t know of anyone who gets a cremation in an attempt to subvert God’s plan for their bodily resurrection (despite the assertions on an old preacher I once knew who was certain the godless were cremating to avoid the final judgment). Everyone I know who chooses cremation does it because of one reason: the exorbitant cost of traditional funeral and burial. Many people cannot afford to die except on the budget plan.
I think this is a case of [URL=http://sharperiron.org/article/shall-we-cast-lots-identifying-biblical-…] a Biblical example becoming a mandate[/URL]. Are we commanded to bury dead bodies, or is it just the method most chosen in Scripture? Also, what about the Bible precedent for ‘burying’ in caves and not in a box under a pile of dirt , if we’re going to get technical about it?
I agree that we should not treat death and burial in a frivolous manner, but I like the idea of my essentially useless corpse being used to increase the skill of a surgeon-in-training, or to help law enforcement more accurately read a crime scene and thus increase their chances of catching the bad guy. When medical schools and forensic pathologies are done studying these cadavers, they cremate them. I don’t see a Scriptural reason not to do so, and I don’t think it diminishes Christianity in any way.
For people who are concerned about whether or not donated bodies are treated with respect, [URL=http://sharperiron.org/filings/4-6-10/14504#comment-12286] the book I mentioned in my earlier post[/URL] documents that the people who use donated bodies treat them with the utmost respect and gratitude.
I agree that we should not treat death and burial in a frivolous manner, but I like the idea of my essentially useless corpse being used to increase the skill of a surgeon-in-training, or to help law enforcement more accurately read a crime scene and thus increase their chances of catching the bad guy. When medical schools and forensic pathologies are done studying these cadavers, they cremate them. I don’t see a Scriptural reason not to do so, and I don’t think it diminishes Christianity in any way.
For people who are concerned about whether or not donated bodies are treated with respect, [URL=http://sharperiron.org/filings/4-6-10/14504#comment-12286] the book I mentioned in my earlier post[/URL] documents that the people who use donated bodies treat them with the utmost respect and gratitude.
I understand the practical nature of the argument for cremation. And if you begin with the practical and try to reason why it should not be so, I can see how you might arrive at that conclusion.
However, what if you begin with the perspective of what makes cremation permissible? In the end, we can reason out why a lot of things we do aren’t practical. Jesus prays “give us this day our daily bread” when the bread presumably is already in front of him. What practical sense does that make? We often encourage people who are struggling financially to give to the Lord. Who can afford to do that, some might say?
Again, I am not being dogmatic here. I speak to caution those who seem to be dismissive of the concepts and reasoning laid out here.
However, what if you begin with the perspective of what makes cremation permissible? In the end, we can reason out why a lot of things we do aren’t practical. Jesus prays “give us this day our daily bread” when the bread presumably is already in front of him. What practical sense does that make? We often encourage people who are struggling financially to give to the Lord. Who can afford to do that, some might say?
Again, I am not being dogmatic here. I speak to caution those who seem to be dismissive of the concepts and reasoning laid out here.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
There are literally dozens of practices in Scripture that we don’t observe today simply because they are patterns/examples, but not mandates. Aaron’s thread (which I linked to earlier) is about how we differentiate what is an example, or a pattern, or a command.
If there are no commands regarding how bodies are to be disposed of, then all we have are patterns/examples. But those patterns don’t cover disposal of bodies at sea or in outer space… or those that die of infectious diseases- so if burial is a mandate, we need clear Scriptural support for that command, and then make it clear how such a mandate could have certain exceptions, and when you get into making exceptions, you have just negated the command.
I’d say if there isn’t a compelling reason to cremate, then one should be buried in a traditional manner- which in the Western world will not involve wrapping in linen or buying a cave, so there again we’ve done away with one aspect of the pattern already. But there are compelling reasons to cremate or dispose of bodies in other ways, so I don’t see how it’s possible to call cremation, or burial at sea, or expelling a body out of the airlock a violation of Scripture, and therefore a sinful practice.
If there are no commands regarding how bodies are to be disposed of, then all we have are patterns/examples. But those patterns don’t cover disposal of bodies at sea or in outer space… or those that die of infectious diseases- so if burial is a mandate, we need clear Scriptural support for that command, and then make it clear how such a mandate could have certain exceptions, and when you get into making exceptions, you have just negated the command.
I’d say if there isn’t a compelling reason to cremate, then one should be buried in a traditional manner- which in the Western world will not involve wrapping in linen or buying a cave, so there again we’ve done away with one aspect of the pattern already. But there are compelling reasons to cremate or dispose of bodies in other ways, so I don’t see how it’s possible to call cremation, or burial at sea, or expelling a body out of the airlock a violation of Scripture, and therefore a sinful practice.
Discussion