John Vaughn (FBFI President/CEO): "one thing is clear: this video ends the fiction that 'Northland has not changed.'”

Dan,

I think musical style comes under general categories such as beauty, loveliness, and melody. Even the OT psalms would specify particular melodies to accompany the singing of the OT songs. There are many references regarding those qualities in the context of worship. Even Moses identified the musical sound in the idol-worshipping camp as something antithetical to the worship of Yahweh and more compatible with the Apis bull-god of Egypt. I think it is safe to say that the musical style which accompanies our worship should be beautiful as God defines beauty, loveliness, holy, and melodic. One has to be a discerning student of music and of culture to determine how music communicates and what it means. Scott has written well on that subject. If I follow your logic, potentially any style of music would or could be used in worship. I know you and Julie well enough that you would never flesh out that principle to the extreme. I appreciate that quality about you. Though there is some subjectivity in application, let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water.

Scott, I am thankful that someone finally provided scripture on this subject. The verse you posted said “let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth.”

I have not heard anyone on this post arguing for corrupt lyrics.

Even though I disagree with your application of this verse, it is refreshing to see a seminary professor that at least tries to give scripture rather than telling those with honest questions that they must have missed something in their ministry preparation or telling them they are out of bounds rather than actually clarifying what he meant.

I must admit that I am frustrated by this thread. I really really prefer the traditional hymns over the CCM, and I would love to have clear scripture to support why my preferences are better than others, but I have not been given that information. I have come asking to be taught, but instead have been mocked for not getting it. That has been the most heartbreaking of all. (BTW, I still do not understand why the Great Commandment means that CCM is wrong- whatever it is that I am misunderstanding or misapplying on that thought, I would love to have explained)

Scott, thank you for at least attempting to give me something from scripture.

[Mike Harding]

Dan,

I think musical style comes under general categories such as beauty, loveliness, and melody. Even the OT psalms would specify particular melodies to accompany the singing of the OT songs. There are many references regarding those qualities in the context of worship. Even Moses identified the musical sound in the idol-worshipping camp as something antithetical to the worship of Yahweh and more compatible with the Apis bull-god of Egypt. I think it is safe to say that the musical style which accompanies our worship should be beautiful as God defines beauty, loveliness, holy, and melodic. One has to be a discerning student of music and of culture to determine how music communicates and what it means. Scott has written well on that subject. If I follow your logic, potentially any style of music would or could be used in worship. I know you and Julie well enough that you would never flesh out that principle to the extreme. I appreciate that quality about you. Though there is some subjectivity in application, let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water.

Thanks for the kind words, brother. I hope you know Julie and I love and appreciate you and your family greatly.

Regarding your thoughts, you and I know that it is the lack of specificity in God’s Word regarding the definitions of words like “beauty, loveliness, holy, and melodic” especially as it concerns the subject of music. I’ve read much of what has been written in recent years regarding it. Of course there are certain styles we wouldn’t use in our church, but I think much of that has to do with my own, our Elder’s own, and even our church families’ own particular tastes in music. We are constantly trying to balance that with the reality of a growing church that is also becoming more ethnically diverse each year.

I don’t know what it means to “throw the baby out with the bath water” means in this area. Really, I just don’t. From your perspective, has Northland done this? I ask, because from my perspective, they haven’t. But I know you love the Lord and you love the Gospel, and I hope you know the same about me.

So, here’s a specific for you, that may indicate to you that my bath water long ago wished its baby was still there :-) This is Shaii Linne explaining the reasoning behind one of his newest songs entitled “False Teachers.” Below that is a link to Justin Taylor’s blog where he has actually embedded the song so that you can hear it. I’m posting this because I’m telling you that I like it. I appreciate his boldness, the honestly in the lyrics, the truthfulness of content, and yes, I even like the “style/genre” of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by-JDhaUBGk&feature=player_embedded

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2013/04/07/fale-teache…

To me, it seems that trying to resolve the music issue in threads like this is an exercise in futility. It’s not that the issues aren’t important, but even if a few are convinced here, countless others will remain unconvinced, and it won’t answer the matter at hand. I understand that matter to be: is there room to work alongside those with whom we strongly disagree on this issue?

For example: could Dan McGhee have Bauder in to preach in a conference? Could Scott Aniol send his kids to a week of camp where Jay was the activity director? Could Brenda’s church have a missionary in whose kids listened to “Go Fish”? That kind of a thing.

Practically speaking, that is the question that will not be going away for any of us in the foreseeable future.

Greg,

It seems to me that the overly simple answer to your question is this: it depends on the 1) the degree of the difference and 2) the nature of the cooperation. Your examples illustrate this, I think, particularly the last two. If a missionary comes and speaks at my church, his views on music are less relevant than if I am sending my kids to the camp he is running (depending, of course, on what you mean by activity director; perhaps Jay is just running game time in this example).

Greg - this is a very good question. I agree with Michael that it entirely depends on the nature of the cooperation. The short answer is “yes,” there can be cooperation.

I would agree, MPR. But again, those things will continue to be there. You might have a missionary speak- but would his views on music one way or another be a factor in taking him on for support? Would it be different if you were a new pastor surveying the missionaries your church had committed to to support long before you came in? That kind of a thing.

I, for one, see the music issue as important, but I would not handle a disagreement over it, say, with a supported missionary, the same way I would if he changed his views on baptism. The same would be true for someone seeking to join our church.

[Greg Linscott]

To me, it seems that trying to resolve the music issue in threads like this is an exercise in futility. It’s not that the issues aren’t important, but even if a few are convinced here, countless others will remain unconvinced, and it won’t answer the matter at hand. I understand that matter to be: is there room to work alongside those with whom we strongly disagree on this issue?

For example: could Dan McGhee have Bauder in to preach in a conference? Could Scott Aniol send his kids to a week of camp where Jay was the activity director? Could Brenda’s church have a missionary in whose kids listened to “Go Fish”? That kind of a thing.

Practically speaking, that is the question that will not be going away for any of us in the foreseeable future.

Greg, you have summed up the crux of the issue quite well, IMO. And let me answer your question from my perspective - absolutely YES I would have Kevin Bauder speak at my church. I would love to have Sam Horn as well. I would love to have Mike Harding. I would invite a great number of men to speak at my church. I would gladly speak at any conference with them. But, I believe this issue of music is a matter of preference among brothers. I care much more deeply about their understanding of the Gospel than I do whether or not they will listen to Shai Linne. But, the issue is that I don’t think the other side sees this subject the same way, and would therefore, be forced to decline this type of invitation from me.

Come on Riley - Greg finally brings some well-timed love into the room and you squash it like an egg. I’m with Greg - we can come together even though some of us are singing Hymns, some of us are singing a praise song, some of us are counting on the 1 and 3 - others on the 2 and the 4.

Let me remind you all of the great lyrics from a great Hymn - “We are one in the Spirit…..hmnnnnnnnnnnnnn - We are one in the Spirit….hmmmmmmmmm”

so there…………….

sending out warmth and love from the tender cacti of AZ.

Straight Ahead

jt

“Greg and Riley - I’m saving a place for the two of you here at the koinonia camp fire we have here at SI - yep one of you will sit on my right side - the other on the left. I know you are overwhelmed. It’s OK.

But, the issue is that I don’t think the other side sees this issue the same way, and would therefore, be forced to decline this type of invitation from me.

Well, Dan, I haven’t invited you yet, but I would still take the music issue as important. But for one relevant example, I think, I am having Phil Johnson in to speak in September (the day after he speaks to the men of the Minnesota Baptist Association), whose church, at least, does not line up neatly with us in practice on this issue.

OK - you two could learn much from Dan

This is a loving guy - you two have about a minute to get this or I’m dumping both of you and Dan will be my fireside fellowship buddy!

Straight Ahead!

jt

I’m sorry. I’m separating from you for a very practical reason… because you have teenage boys. :o

Joel,

Come on, man: I spoke at your church just two weekends ago, and your never offered me a lawn chair! That said, there were marshmallows for toasting, so we were good there.

In all seriousness, my position is that music matters because ordinate affection, loving God rightly, matters. So I can’t view it as a ministry non-issue. How high a priority is it in cooperative ministry? Once again, it depends on a host of factors. But music is in the mix of relevant factors, not because of a certain view of music, but because of a certain understanding of what it is like to love God.

An aside: next month, I’m scheduled to teach a graduate hermeneutics course at Northland. So, while I am as Bauderian as anyone on this forum, I don’t see this issue as one that forces me to issue immediate and irrevocable anathemas.

[Greg Linscott]

But, the issue is that I don’t think the other side sees this issue the same way, and would therefore, be forced to decline this type of invitation from me.

Well, Dan, I haven’t invited you yet, but I would still take the music issue as important. But for one relevant example, I think, I am having Phil Johnson in to speak in September (the day after he speaks to the men of the Minnesota Baptist Association), whose church, at least, does not line up neatly with us in practice on this issue.

Greg, please don’t misunderstand what I’m saying… I, too, think “the music issue” is important. VERY IMPORTANT. But, I must stand where Scripture is clear concerning the subject and that always involves the content/lyrical message of the music. I will fight about that. Why? Because Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19 speak specifically to content. But, it is in the area of style/genre where I believe we need to give grace to fellow believers.

BTW, I obviously have no problem at all with you having Phil Johnson in to speak at your church. IMO, he has proved himself to be a champion for truth and has shown a willingness to battle over fundamentals of the faith. It seems to me, based on your invite of him, that we would agree regarding the matter of musical preferences/practices regarding styles/genres not being a matter of separation or needing to limit cooperation among brothers. Honestly, I find this to be incredibly ENCOURAGING and REFRESHING.

Seriously guys, if we could just choose to stand on this matter where Scripture is clear - not going farther than Scripture goes, but being sure to go as far as it does go - we could unite some now separated groups that have far more in common than they do differences. Greg, it sounds to me that you are willing to do this.