Loving Our Pro-Choice Neighbors in Word and Deed

[Greg Long]

Wow, what an amazing distortion of history this is. So basically anyone who fought for change of any kind was a liberal? Abraham Lincoln was a liberal? (Remember, he was just as much in favor of PRESERVING THE UNION (in other words, fighting against change) as he was for abolishing slavery.) Let’s just throw out all definitions of liberal and conservative then.

Yes, of course there were conservative Christians arguing for slavery in the 19th century and against civil rights in the 20th century. But there were conservative Christians on the opposite sides of those issues, too.

Truth hurts sometimes. Maybe go read the definitions of liberal and conservative before you decide to throw them out. It is a simple Google.

Thanks for the recommendation, I would never have thought of that!

Questions:

• Do you still stand by your argument that Abraham Lincoln was a liberal?
• Would you consider William Wilberforce to be a liberal?
• Do you have any response to Joel’s post which used actual historians to refute your points?
• Can you respond to pvawter’s point that according to your definition all pro-lifers are liberals?
• Would you consider Al Mohler to be a liberal, since he fought for change at Southern Seminary? And I guess all the professors there who denied the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture were conservative, since they fought for the status quo?

Would you be willing to accept alternative definitions (that I found on Google! thanks again!) that are not from Wikipedia or Merriam-Webster?

Liberals believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

https://www.studentnewsdaily.com/conservative-vs-liberal-beliefs/

Notice that the descriptions at the top of the following page do not use the words “new” or “old.”

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Conservative_vs_Liberal

One more time…

I clearly (twice) made the clarifying comment that for the sake of my argument, one was to read my conservative/liberal comments based on the context that “liberals” were “non-Christ followers” and I did so because of my desire to express my argument in the current context of Liberals being largely humanist/postmodern/secular/relativists and Conservatives being largely Christian/absolutists. I truly do not need to be lectured on historical context and etymology as I have degrees in both History and English and my understanding of the historical etymology of the term called me to clarify how I was defining the terms for my rebuttal.

To put it simply, my contention is that today’s “liberal/secularists” desire to paint today’s “conservative/Christians” as somehow being detached from, late comers to and/or resistant to social justice issues and they are wrong. Works for societal improvement have been a consistent effort of the evangelization efforts of generations of Christians and far surpass anything done by those categorized as “liberal” or “Social Justice Warriors (SJWs)” in both breadth, depth and cost regardless of the spin being made here or elsewhere. The vast numbers of hospitals, schools, rescue missions, orphanages and other similar outreaches started by all stripes of those who identify as “Christians” provide ample evidence of the scope of that effort. The word “Conservative” today has a significant cognitative assignment to conservative Christians and Evangelicals while “Liberal” is more frequently assigned to secularists and main-stream Protestants and other theological liberals who long ago left the Gospel behind. That’s not to say that there are no “liberal” humanitarian efforts, but to suggest that over the last two hundred years “liberals” (as defined above) have outpaced conservative Christians is simply incorrect. Language does evolve (which is why I no longer use the term “fundamentalist” to describe myself.)

[Greg Long]

Would you be willing to accept alternative definitions (that I found on Google! thanks again!) that are not from Wikipedia or Merriam-Webster?

Liberals believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

https://www.studentnewsdaily.com/conservative-vs-liberal-beliefs/

Ah, this is the problem. You are not giving definitions of liberal and conservative here. You are giving the 2015 synopsis of what those two groupings tend to believe about government today. I am not arguing from that point of view at all. I am basing my statements on the generally accepted definition of liberal and conservative are which revolves around how they view progress and tradition.

[DLCreed]

One more time…

I clearly (twice) made the clarifying comment that for the sake of my argument, one was to read my conservative/liberal comments based on the context that “liberals” were “non-Christ followers” and I did so because of my desire to express my argument in the current context of Liberals being largely humanist/postmodern/secular/relativists and Conservatives being largely Christian/absolutists. I truly do not need to be lectured on historical context and etymology as I have degrees in both History and English and my understanding of the historical etymology of the term called me to clarify how I was defining the terms for my rebuttal.

To put it simply, my contention is that today’s “liberal/secularists” desire to paint today’s “conservative/Christians” as somehow being detached from, late comers to and/or resistant to social justice issues and they are wrong. Works for societal improvement have been a consistent effort of the evangelization efforts of generations of Christians and far surpass anything done by those categorized as “liberal” or “Social Justice Warriors (SJWs)” in both breadth, depth and cost regardless of the spin being made here or elsewhere. The vast numbers of hospitals, schools, rescue missions, orphanages and other similar outreaches started by all stripes of those who identify as “Christians” provide ample evidence of the scope of that effort. The word “Conservative” today has a significant cognitative assignment to conservative Christians and Evangelicals while “Liberal” is more frequently assigned to secularists and main-stream Protestants and other theological liberals who long ago left the Gospel behind. That’s not to say that there are no “liberal” humanitarian efforts, but to suggest that over the last two hundred years “liberals” (as defined above) have outpaced conservative Christians is simply incorrect. Language does evolve (which is why I no longer use the term “fundamentalist” to describe myself.)

Fair enough. You like Greg L are arguing based on what you believe liberal and conservative mean today. I am arguing based on what liberal/conservative means generically through the scope of history.

I don’t know how to prove one way or another whether people throughout history that would be called “conservative” today have done more for society than people throughout history that would be classified liberal by today’s standards. Maybe, maybe not. Yes, there are a lot of Christian-founded hospitals though Christian does not mean conservative. Liberals have done enormous good as well though non-Christian does not mean liberal.

That being said, I would argue that in certain areas such as the advances in the rights of the oppressed during the past century (women, employees, minorities), today’s conservative has been on the wrong side of the issues for the most part. And yes, abortion is an exception to that.

[GregH]

Greg Long wrote:

Would you be willing to accept alternative definitions (that I found on Google! thanks again!) that are not from Wikipedia or Merriam-Webster?

Liberals believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

https://www.studentnewsdaily.com/conservative-vs-liberal-beliefs/

Ah, this is the problem. You are not giving definitions of liberal and conservative here. You are giving the 2015 synopsis of what those two groupings tend to believe about government today. I am not arguing from that point of view at all. I am basing my statements on the generally accepted definition of liberal and conservative are which revolves around how they view progress and tradition.

If we’re talking historical definitions, this historian argues it is extremely simplistic and incorrect to identify liberal vs. conservative as embracing change vs. rejecting change.

”Moderate Political Ideologies: Liberalism and Conservatism” by Dr. Jim L. Riley, Regis University, Denver, CO

Certainly it was John Locke (1632-1704) who best expressed the principles of Liberalism in the British (and American) tradition. His Two Treatises of Government (first published in 1690) constitutes a most important statement on the liberal political philosophy that has so much influenced politics in succeeding centuries. At the center of his writings are basic values that today remain as under girding for the entire liberal view. Government exists to serve the people and community it governs. Its power is limited by concepts of natural rights of individuals and moral or natural law. Among these natural rights was the concept of the right to acquire and dispose of property. “Life, liberty and estate” belonged to individuals quite apart from any grant from society or its instrument Government.

…

Whereas liberalism sought to liberate mankind from oppressive institutions (be they governments, religious institutions, oppressive social customs and traditions, or vast economic enterprises), conservatism developed as a reaction to what was perceived as dangerous tendencies within the liberal movements toward radicalism and a wholesale rejection of the past as valuable. There was and is an element within conservatism that holds the past in reverence and views with skepticism most change, particularly if it was planned change. If, however, conservatism means nothing more than a rationale’ justifying the maintenance of the status quo then it cannot be correctly adjudged an ideology for it would be content neutral. Conservatism could, in that instance, be used to support political systems ranging from democratic to communist to fascist to anarchistic.

…

In summary, conservatism does contain basic beliefs and values beyond a mere mistrust of change. Certain core concepts remain throughout the long spectrum of the conservative ideology. They may be seen as:
1. high value on existing institutions as produced by custom and tradition
2. a belief in mankind’s essential base and irrational nature
3. faith in some supernatural force guiding human affairs
4. acceptance of human inequality and the attending consequence of social hierarchy
5. recognition of the need for a sense of community among individuals that will bind them emotionally to their society.