"Logos is charging for software so incomplete and buggy that Microsoft wouldn't send it out the door as an Alpha, let alone a Beta. "
Thanks for pointing this out, as I asked for a copy of Logos for Christmas from everyone I know and wasn’t aware of all of these problems. Of course, now I’m not sure I want it ;)…
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
It boggles the mind how they get away with this. And yet I can’t really think of any other high-end Bible study software out there that competes. I’ve touted e-Sword for several years, and while it’s not as feature-rich perhaps as Logos it’s faster, more stable, and more expandable. Maybe if Logos gets some competition it’ll light a fire under them to produce a working project and stop assuming that everyone is cool with paying for buggy software. (Or not…everyone’s been saying that about Microsoft for years. :) )
I will say that Logos’ Blackberry and iPhone versions are awful, both of them. The Blackberry version lists only the first few dozen resources, great if you’re looking for a book that starts with “A” but not so much if you’re looking for, say, Vine’s concordance. And you can’t purchase and download OTA (over-the-air). You can look but not touch, it seems. The iPhone app is a little better though even on a 3Gs it’s still sluggish and counter-intuitive. I tolerate it, though, because that’s the only way I’ve found (so far) of getting La Biblia de las Américas on my phone that isn’t browser-based.
Technological tools for Bible study have always fascinated me. I’ve gotten to help several missionaries and church planters with their technology troubles, and I enjoy the looks of amazement when I tell them how technology can help their ministries: “You mean my computer can do *that*?” I was particularly moved when one of my student workers (who is a Computer Science major) decided to port over the Sword Project to the iPhone/iPod platform, and amazed when he finished a very working copy in three days. Supports Unicode, RTL, red-letter, basically everything a regular Sword module does, plus lightning-quick browsing and searching and over-the-air downloads of additional modules. Technology may get a bad rap from “traditionalists” but I’m convinced the Kingdom potential for technology is staggering. Praise the Lord for the geeks who write Bible software! :)
I will say that Logos’ Blackberry and iPhone versions are awful, both of them. The Blackberry version lists only the first few dozen resources, great if you’re looking for a book that starts with “A” but not so much if you’re looking for, say, Vine’s concordance. And you can’t purchase and download OTA (over-the-air). You can look but not touch, it seems. The iPhone app is a little better though even on a 3Gs it’s still sluggish and counter-intuitive. I tolerate it, though, because that’s the only way I’ve found (so far) of getting La Biblia de las Américas on my phone that isn’t browser-based.
Technological tools for Bible study have always fascinated me. I’ve gotten to help several missionaries and church planters with their technology troubles, and I enjoy the looks of amazement when I tell them how technology can help their ministries: “You mean my computer can do *that*?” I was particularly moved when one of my student workers (who is a Computer Science major) decided to port over the Sword Project to the iPhone/iPod platform, and amazed when he finished a very working copy in three days. Supports Unicode, RTL, red-letter, basically everything a regular Sword module does, plus lightning-quick browsing and searching and over-the-air downloads of additional modules. Technology may get a bad rap from “traditionalists” but I’m convinced the Kingdom potential for technology is staggering. Praise the Lord for the geeks who write Bible software! :)
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
He says in his review that he’s always disliked Logos’ business model and always found it hard to use. As one who has never found it hard to use or counterintuitive, I’m not sure I put much stock in his review. That said, I haven’t upgraded. Haven’t got the money. But maybe I can get a review copy and decide for myself.
I did ask some folks at Logos once about why they so often lump stuff together rather than selling it separately. The one I spoke to said that this enabled them to lower prices because the publishers will sell the title at a lower cost bundled than they will by itself. Not sure what to think about that. There have been times I’d gladly pay extra for one title in a set rather than “less per title” for a bundle with half a dozen titles I’ll never use. That is, I’d rather pay $60 for one title I’ll use than $100 for a set that includes it with five others I don’t want.
Note also that others have apparently not had the experiences Bayly has…
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/11/logos-40-launches-today.html
http://christianbooknotes.com/2009/logos-4-released/
http://www.morethancake.org/2009/11/logos4-2.html
Also, if there wasn’t a public beta this would be an odd departure for them. I tested many versions of Logos 3 for months before it went live. All you had to do was download it.
Edit: do read the comments at BaylyBlog… there is some good information there. Personally, I’m now growing eager to try it.
I did ask some folks at Logos once about why they so often lump stuff together rather than selling it separately. The one I spoke to said that this enabled them to lower prices because the publishers will sell the title at a lower cost bundled than they will by itself. Not sure what to think about that. There have been times I’d gladly pay extra for one title in a set rather than “less per title” for a bundle with half a dozen titles I’ll never use. That is, I’d rather pay $60 for one title I’ll use than $100 for a set that includes it with five others I don’t want.
Note also that others have apparently not had the experiences Bayly has…
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/11/logos-40-launches-today.html
http://christianbooknotes.com/2009/logos-4-released/
http://www.morethancake.org/2009/11/logos4-2.html
Also, if there wasn’t a public beta this would be an odd departure for them. I tested many versions of Logos 3 for months before it went live. All you had to do was download it.
Edit: do read the comments at BaylyBlog… there is some good information there. Personally, I’m now growing eager to try it.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I thought Bayly’s comments were interesting because, unlike the posts that Aaron mentions, they were made weeks after the initial release when he had had a chance to see it in sustained action. That being said, I think Phil Gons makes some good counters in the comboxes.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
It would be good to get as many comments as possible from people who have used Logos4 for a long time, so I appreciate this.
Someone on one of those links mentioned using BibleWorks over Logos. Correct me if I’m wrong, I think that Logos is far more comprehensive than BW. Maybe I’m wrong, but BW seems to be very grammar and lexically focused. Since I barely got through Greek and have no Hebrew, the limitations of that program are fairly obvious to all.
BTW, there’s a discount if you use SharperIron as a coupon code, in case anyone here is going to buy it shortly, and as I noted, there is a payment plan as well.
Someone on one of those links mentioned using BibleWorks over Logos. Correct me if I’m wrong, I think that Logos is far more comprehensive than BW. Maybe I’m wrong, but BW seems to be very grammar and lexically focused. Since I barely got through Greek and have no Hebrew, the limitations of that program are fairly obvious to all.
BTW, there’s a discount if you use SharperIron as a coupon code, in case anyone here is going to buy it shortly, and as I noted, there is a payment plan as well.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Most thorough review I’ve seen so far is here: http://www.ccmag.com/articles/articles.php?recordID=222
…and they do allude to a couple of the problems Bayly mentioned, though I can’t remember if they were aware that several of the missing features were left out intentionally because research showed people didn’t use them. (But then, when the product was released, many complained so they are planning to add them back in). But there are also a couple of features that I’m sure were simply not finished and they wanted to get the product out in time for holiday shopping.
At least, unlike Microsoft, they will not hold the missing/debugged features until Logos 5 and charge you double to get them. :)
(Edit: if you’re like me and have used Logos for so long it’s synonymous with “study,” product releases are more like a continuum anyway. That is, it makes little difference to me if I get all the features at once or get most now and some later. Since I’ve used betas heavily in the past, I’m used to that.)
…and they do allude to a couple of the problems Bayly mentioned, though I can’t remember if they were aware that several of the missing features were left out intentionally because research showed people didn’t use them. (But then, when the product was released, many complained so they are planning to add them back in). But there are also a couple of features that I’m sure were simply not finished and they wanted to get the product out in time for holiday shopping.
At least, unlike Microsoft, they will not hold the missing/debugged features until Logos 5 and charge you double to get them. :)
(Edit: if you’re like me and have used Logos for so long it’s synonymous with “study,” product releases are more like a continuum anyway. That is, it makes little difference to me if I get all the features at once or get most now and some later. Since I’ve used betas heavily in the past, I’m used to that.)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I still must be the only person out there using PC Study Bible. Like it for what it’s worth, and I’ve invested too much to make a switch at this point, but I usually wonder if I’m missing the boat by not using Logos. At least this review lets me know that maybe I shouldn’t feel so bad about not using Logos like everyone else.
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Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
I’m not a pastor, but I have found that a combination of Mac Sword, e-Sword (for when the Macs are running in PC mode), and a couple of programs on the iPhone have met all my electronic Bible study needs. I don’t think I’ve even cracked open a paper Bible in over a year now, and I haven’t used my hardback Strong’s for longer than that.
Those really expensive programs have a few publications I can’t get as easily electronically, but I think over time there will be ways to purchase individual works rather than a large, expensive bundle.
Those really expensive programs have a few publications I can’t get as easily electronically, but I think over time there will be ways to purchase individual works rather than a large, expensive bundle.
Dave Barnhart
I used PC Study Bible for a while back in the old, old days… as in Windows 3.1 (maybe even DOS). Can’t remember why I moved away, but I went to Logos 1.6 for Win 3.1 and have never looked back.
I suppose I’d need something else in addition at this point if I were going to use Bible study sw on a phone, but I can’t imagine why I’d need to do study on my phone. :D
I suppose I’d need something else in addition at this point if I were going to use Bible study sw on a phone, but I can’t imagine why I’d need to do study on my phone. :D
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Perhaps this belongs in a different thread, but the topic got me wondering. I have used esword and online bible for several years to great benefit - particularly since both are free. What features would I gain by using Logos or Bibleworks or something else? I recently learned logos offers a diagramming tool which piqued my interest. Is this true? What else am I missing?
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
[Aaron Blumer]
I suppose I’d need something else in addition at this point if I were going to use Bible study sw on a phone, but I can’t imagine why I’d need to do study on my phone. :D
Well, at home I have no need to do this, of course, but it still feels odd to me to pull out a laptop in the church pew for Bible reading and study. Not that I haven’t done it, but not very often — I’m a bit afraid of it being a distraction for others, as well as a little noisy when I use the keyboard. The iPhone sort of fills that need for me. Both my wife and I use our iPhones as our church Bibles as well as what we use for personal reading/devotions. I have several translations, maps, commentaries, Strong’s etc., all at my fingertips. The cross-references are interactive and can go directly to the scripture. I have an automatic list of all the scriptures I just turned to during the sermon, etc. For prayer meeting, I can keep prayer requests as a list that gets synced with the computer (and hence not lost easily), and I can refer back to every list I’ve made since I’ve have had the iPod and then the iPhone which replaced it. The convenience factor has gone way up, and that’s what makes it worthwhile.
Our song leader uses his smart flip phone to read scripture from the pulpit, so maybe my wife and I don’t look so odd in the pew! In any case, at our church, at least, people are used to it. Of course, we are located in a major tech area. I’d bet half the men in the church have jobs related to the computer field.
Dave Barnhart
My 11 year old daughter recently purchased an iPod Touch she bought with her own money she earned from her paper route. I bought her the NKJV from Olive Tree available in the iTunes app store, and she is allowed to use it in church as her Bible long as she doesn’t use it for the games and other things. She has honored the agreement thus far.
I have a new convert in my church who owned an iPod Touch as well, and when he heard my daughter got that app, he acquired it for himself, too. We did discipleship classes today, and he said it has been a major aid in navigating through the Bible, since he is quite unfamiliar with the distribution order of the books of the Bible.
As far as needing to do study on our phones or what have you- I imagine the day is coming when the importance of one’s actual “personal computer” will be diminished, as people will be able to access their content from various devices capable of accessing the internet.
I have a new convert in my church who owned an iPod Touch as well, and when he heard my daughter got that app, he acquired it for himself, too. We did discipleship classes today, and he said it has been a major aid in navigating through the Bible, since he is quite unfamiliar with the distribution order of the books of the Bible.
As far as needing to do study on our phones or what have you- I imagine the day is coming when the importance of one’s actual “personal computer” will be diminished, as people will be able to access their content from various devices capable of accessing the internet.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
Good to know I’m not the only one who uses his phone as a Bible in church. For me the issue is wanting to use the ESV without causing problems if someone were to pick up my Bible and analyze the spine (which has happened before). A lot of times I won’t even use an English translation at all and completely avoid the issue. :) But it is an electronic gizmo and there’s always the temptation when it vibrates at me to hop over to my email real quick and see what just came in. But it’s a lot better than walking into church with an armload of Bibles and concordances. Instead it’s a small phone and a web browser pointed at BibleGateway.com or one of my Bible apps. Cleaner, faster, less likely to cause problems.
I am curious to hear from pastors, though - I know you can see when people use phones or what have you during the service. Is it at all distracting to you?
I am curious to hear from pastors, though - I know you can see when people use phones or what have you during the service. Is it at all distracting to you?
1. It was nice to see a review by someone who hasn’t had the special privilege of using the beta for a while. Bayly’s article has the feel of being a little more objective than most others (including the ones mentioned above).
2. Since the cost of the upgrade will range from $100-$200 (depending on what you have and if you can get a discount), it seems like a reasonable way to take the next step with Logos if you’re still not sure about forking out $300-$500 for a big step up from Scholars to Silver, or Silver to Gold or so on.
3. Many of Bayly’s problems seem to be resolvable in the near future. Maybe one shouldn’t get it for Christmas (though I’m not removing it from my list). By tax return time I would expect things to be better. :)
4. As I check out Logos 4 and read reviews, I seem to be getting an indirect “yes” to what is an important question—can Logos now replace Bibleworks for quick and simple Bible searches? If Logos 4 is faster, easier, and allows the kind of searches and comparisons that BW is known for, then I may never spend the cash to upgrade beyond the BW6 that I have.
2. Since the cost of the upgrade will range from $100-$200 (depending on what you have and if you can get a discount), it seems like a reasonable way to take the next step with Logos if you’re still not sure about forking out $300-$500 for a big step up from Scholars to Silver, or Silver to Gold or so on.
3. Many of Bayly’s problems seem to be resolvable in the near future. Maybe one shouldn’t get it for Christmas (though I’m not removing it from my list). By tax return time I would expect things to be better. :)
4. As I check out Logos 4 and read reviews, I seem to be getting an indirect “yes” to what is an important question—can Logos now replace Bibleworks for quick and simple Bible searches? If Logos 4 is faster, easier, and allows the kind of searches and comparisons that BW is known for, then I may never spend the cash to upgrade beyond the BW6 that I have.
Discussion