By Jim Oct 29 2016 Hillary Clintonthere are presently two types of Christian churches in our country: a church where Jesus Christ is in the denominator or one where Christ is in the numerator 6627 reads There are 23 Comments The church will survive no apward - Sat, 10/29/2016 - 3:19pm The church will survive no matter who is President, Prime Minister, or Caesar. There is a King over all other kings, and no election will change that. He will build his church and the gates of Hades will not overpower it (and neither will the gates of the White House). -APW andrewmary.blogspot.com abwetogosouth.org Changing Hearts and Minds Through Christ Joeb - Sat, 10/29/2016 - 3:47pm Mark Smith to his great credit said the above in a prior thread. Instead concentrating on militancy we should put are focus on winning souls and discipleship. Vote stand up for your rights as an American instead of legislating all of America to be like the Duggars. Thats just what the Christian Political Right was trying to doing i.e. Palin Huckabee and Cruz. Then came Trump The Church is what mainly carries the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not para churches and not Christian Colleges and not the American Government. When Mark said this regarding the situation in Kentucky some people disagreed. Mark was right on the money and that's where we need to go to survive Hillary and prosper. In my book time and the emergence of Dumpf as Bert refers to him has proven the militancy and the Christian Right has eclipsed the importance of our local churches with some people. Fundemental and conservative evangelical. So many jumped on this band wagon and left the local church in their rear view mirror. I'm not say you can't picket the local abortion clinic but if your involved in those things at the expense of your local church and reaching out to your neighbor and your community then something is wrong. Again common sense. This could separate the wheat from the chaff Jim - Sat, 10/29/2016 - 4:03pm Twitter Jim's Doctrinal Statement Joeb the Publican Joeb - Sat, 10/29/2016 - 4:09pm Now now Jim don't demonize my former employer. Christ did dine with them and sinners. He even loves me. Although Bert would probably love to plant a little shoe leather on my publican bottom if he had the chance but only out of love. An important question to WallyMorris - Sat, 10/29/2016 - 9:29pm An important question to consider is how the decision about whether to vote for Trump is affecting churches. So many Christians are so determined to keep Clinton from becoming President that they are insisting that Christians MUST vote and vote for Trump. They view those Christians who are not as quick to decide as lacking common sense and obviously deficient in spirituality. The decision about Trump is splitting churches, families, and personal relationships. This is bizarre. I only recently decided to vote for Trump after a long time of working through this. Some in my church are not happy with my taking so long, and 2 families have decided not to attend any longer. They refuse to even meet to discuss it. So hypocritical. Wally Morris Charity Baptist Church Huntington, IN amomentofcharity.blogspot.com Some in my church are not Larry - Sat, 10/29/2016 - 9:54pm Some in my church are not happy with my taking so long, and 2 families have decided not to attend any longer. They refuse to even meet to discuss it. So hypocritical. How in the world would they know who you are voting for or how long it took you to figure it out? Many families in our church WallyMorris - Sat, 10/29/2016 - 10:12pm Many families in our church have struggled with and are struggling with their vote this election. Women whose husbands have cheated on them, women who were sexually abused, adults whose father had affairs when those adults were children, to name a few. Trump's vulgarity, sexual bragging, etc make this decision a mater of conscience for some of them, and it's difficult. I did a Sunday night series this Fall called "Making Choices In A Confusing World" in order to help people with this election, and I mentioned my own hesitation about Trump, so people know that I have not been quick to jump on the Trump bandwagon. Apparently, because I did not make a quick decision, a decision which was so obvious to them, they are not happy. Wally Morris Charity Baptist Church Huntington, IN amomentofcharity.blogspot.com It seems to me that would be Larry - Sun, 10/30/2016 - 12:32pm It seems to me that would be a great reminder to remember the mission of the church and the role of the pastor. Preach the word and stay out of politics. It divides people over things that aren't the gospel. Teach people to think and apply the Scripture and let them use it. I don't think pastors should be involved in these things publicly. We have a higher mission. I would hate to lose the opportunity to minister to people because I took a stand on something that wasn't part of the Christian faith. Larry, Are you saying Rob Fall - Sun, 10/30/2016 - 12:51pm that in San Francisco we shouldn't take a stand against the LGBT agenda and those who support it? I can easily see us not being able to gather for services in our meeting house. But, the congregation will survive and may even increase. Hoping to shed more light than heat.. I did not "take a stand" on WallyMorris - Sun, 10/30/2016 - 12:59pm I did not "take a stand" on political issues. People in our church were openly struggling with how to vote, if to vote at all. I addressed these concerns in general ways by doing exactly what was suggested: Teach Biblical Principles About Making Decisions. In the process I mentioned that both candidates had major problems. Trump supporters (or should I more accurately say Clinton-haters?) did not like that. How ironic that this historic election will bring significant change to America, one way or the other, and Christians are more divided than ever. When Christ returns, what kind of church will He find? Wally Morris Charity Baptist Church Huntington, IN amomentofcharity.blogspot.com Are you saying that in San Larry - Sun, 10/30/2016 - 1:18pm Are you saying that in San Francisco we shouldn't take a stand against the LGBT agenda and those who support it? That's a moral issue, not a political one. That is something that arises from Scripture. In the process I mentioned Larry - Sun, 10/30/2016 - 1:20pm In the process I mentioned that both candidates had major problems. Trump supporters (or should I more accurately say Clinton-haters?) did not like that. But you told them who you were voting, didn't you? Or did I misunderstand? No, never said from the WallyMorris - Sun, 10/30/2016 - 2:49pm No, never said from the pulpit who I was or was not voting for. That information came out when people asked me questions later. When they asked questions, I said that I wasn't sure I could vote for Trump and that this may be the first Presidential election that I do not vote for a Presidential candidate. I have since decided to press the button by Trump's name. When I do so on Nov 8, I will hold my nose and take nausea medicine. Wally Morris Charity Baptist Church Huntington, IN amomentofcharity.blogspot.com It becomes Rob Fall - Sun, 10/30/2016 - 3:48pm political as the political establishment backs the LGBT agenda. The question becomes how do you deal with moral issues the take on political ramifications. Larry wrote: Are you saying that in San Francisco we shouldn't take a stand against the LGBT agenda and those who support it? That's a moral issue, not a political one. That is something that arises from Scripture. Hoping to shed more light than heat.. #NeverTrump #NeverHillary Jay - Sun, 10/30/2016 - 6:40pm I've been up-front with people that I can't support one (Trump) and I won't support the other (Clinton). As for the church - I'm not concerned. People either love the Lord and will follow him, or they will leave the church for whatever reasons. All I can do is minister to whoever continues to come and follow Him. "Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells Mathematical objections Dan Miller - Mon, 10/31/2016 - 8:58am I'm not sure he understands his analogy mathematically. 859. There is a pleasure in being in a ship beaten about by a storm, when we are sure that it will not founder. The persecutions which harass the Church are of this nature. - B. Pascal Jay, "Support." Dan Miller - Mon, 10/31/2016 - 9:08am Jay, when you say, "I cannot support Trump," I'm wondering what you mean. Trump has made some very lascivious statements that I can't support. Especially in the past. But I'm not sure I expect moral purity from a president. I tend to see him as very open about who he is. (Or was?) But I fully expect that many of our elected officials have the same evils in their hearts. The difference is that they are politicians - so they hid it better. And they have been politicians for a long time. So they have hidden it for a long time. Career politics is part of what I think is hurting our country. I want to see political outsiders take office. I don't see how to do that without some nose holding that other politicians spare us with obfuscation. Dan Miller wrote: GregH - Mon, 10/31/2016 - 9:58am Dan Miller wrote: Jay, when you say, "I cannot support Trump," I'm wondering what you mean. Trump has made some very lascivious statements that I can't support. Especially in the past. But I'm not sure I expect moral purity from a president. I tend to see him as very open about who he is. (Or was?) But I fully expect that many of our elected officials have the same evils in their hearts. The difference is that they are politicians - so they hid it better. And they have been politicians for a long time. So they have hidden it for a long time. Career politics is part of what I think is hurting our country. I want to see political outsiders take office. I don't see how to do that without some nose holding that other politicians spare us with obfuscation. My thoughts. Yes Trump is a sexually deviant pig and yes, probably lots of other presidents have been too. The thing about Trump though is he is just not capable. He is all hot air. His speeches are just stupid personal attacks and sound bites. He is not much of a business person. He could have invested the money from his dad in index funds and done better than he has and that is without bilking taxpayers and banks out of billions through bankruptcy and tax advantages. I have absolutely no respect for the man as a business person. So what is he? He is just a narcissist who thinks he should be president. That is it. Politics can be a noble WallyMorris - Mon, 10/31/2016 - 10:01am Politics can be a noble calling, even a lifelong/career service. Politics is working in/with the "polity" (people, citizens, the "system", etc.) to achieve what is good. Those who are not "politicians", those who have little or no experience in secular government, often bring fresh perspectives and new ideas to achieving the good. Trump has always been a politician of some type. Business has politics. Church has politics. Family has politics. We are all "career politicians" of some type, at some level. If elected, Trump will become a different politician than the one he has been, to a much higher degree and intensity. How well he does, if elected, we will all see. However, the problem is not "politics" but our sin nature which corrupts. Unfortunately the first rule for many politicians is make sure you get reelected and, if not reelected, provide for your life after politics. The Tea Party movement brought many "outsiders" to government and brought needed change to some aspects of government. But even they achieved limited results. Ronald Reagan tried to change some aspects of government. He did have some good results, but not the extent many had hoped. And he was as skillful a politician as any could be. Wally Morris Charity Baptist Church Huntington, IN amomentofcharity.blogspot.com Church survival JBL - Mon, 10/31/2016 - 10:22am I agree with the sentiment of apward's initial comment on the thread. The church itself will survive independently of politics. Christ has guaranteed it. The most common form of Western church business operation model however, may be jeopardized. Right now, this model involves a group of believers incorporating their assets, and operating said corporation in either a revenue neutral or non-profit capacity. Government protections of religious congregation and incorporation including freedom of speech and tax exemptions have made this model a pragmatic one. Realizing that this church operation model is not Biblically mandated is of utmost importance to the conversation as to whether or not the church will survive. For those who cannot dissociate the church business model with the body of Christ, increased government persecution may very well sound like a death knell. I am much more sanguine. I don't see any issue with churches becoming unincorporated and moving their physical operations to their member's houses. I don't see any problem with churches supporting pastoral families with in-kind contributions of food and housing, and with out of pocket cash donations. Can God be worshipped and glorified without the accoutrements of a big building? Can the gospel be given without them as well? The answer to these questions is yes! Nothing else really matters. I consider myself to be in the numerator in de Hundehutte's analogy (mathematical objections aside). Because Christ is in the denominator, I really don't see why the hand wringing is necessary over how political winds may change the church operational model. The church will need to be flexible in terms of arranging logistics to accommodate the new political realities. As a final point - if our effectiveness is limited to having a certain operational model, we have most certainly put Christ in the numerator. John B. Lee The article Greg Long - Mon, 10/31/2016 - 11:25am The article was not saying the church won't survive, but rather that those churches who do not have Christ as the "denominator" will either capitulate or dwindle. Those who do have Christ as the denominator will stand firm. The author wasn't saying the Church will die out, but rather that "Christianity" will become less influential as a force in America. And as far as that is concerned I agree with JBL. -------Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS) Pastor of Adult MinistriesGrace Church, Des Moines, IA Adjunct Instructor School of Divinity Liberty University Kaine/Pence Barry L. - Mon, 10/31/2016 - 12:13pm I now feel that neither Trump nor Clinton will be able to finish their 4 year term; therefore, I am looking at the VPs in this race as to how I am voting. Wally GregH JAY and LARRY ALL ARE BARKING UP THE RIGHT TREE Joeb - Mon, 10/31/2016 - 8:27pm WALLY you are absolutely right those people who left your church over politics are Hypocrites. You have got to be kidding. Sorry to hear that WALLY. Proof in the pudding that some people put this Christian Right Tea Party Politics crap ahead of the mission of the church. It is exactly what I said above. The discussions of politics in church can cause divides. It's not worth it. Now if someone you know on a real personal level and your good friends with that could be different as long as it does not become personal. Almost like a Defense Attorney and a Prosecutor battling it out in Court but outside of court their the best of friends and socialize together i.e. They don't take it personally. Wally your parishioners did take it personally TRUMP's a bum and HILLARY is a witch. I'm just voting down ticket. Neither one deserves the office. Wow what a mess. The only person I like that the bum has in his ranks is Chris Christie. To bad the team was not Ted Cruz Pres and Chris Christie VP to vote for. Now that would be a ticket I could go for. Those two would have cut the crap out of the Federal Budget where it needed to be done and dealt with SSA and Medicare. The money is the single biggest issue When we hit the wall the whole economy is collapse like a house of cards. I could tell you guys stories that would make your heads spin as far as the Government wasting taxpayers money. The government contracting is one big joke. The only part of the government that has good contracting is the US Marines the rest is a joke. Here is one story. Just to show you how stupid the system works. These stories are from the horses mouth. When I went to training for Criminal Investigation School the Treasury Department had recently taken over the old Glyncco naval air station. They put out a bid for an in door range. Well the rules at that time say low bidder wins all no matter what the reputation. Guess what the low bidder never built a indoor gum range in his life. The runner up was the premier indoor gun range builder. Well the guy built it and took his money and ran and the building had no special venting and the the target rail system never work. It was declared unsafe to use due to lead poisoning i.e. poor ventilation. It took them 15 years to get it into service and double the price. Heres another example. The Treasury Contract Officer wanted all these brand new dish washers taken out of new town houses where students were suppose to stay ie ATF Border Patrol IRS US Marshals etc. The contracting officer also wanted some emergency generators removed. So he contracted with a local junk guy to remove everything. While the guy is doing it he realizes all the dish washers are brand new but the real kicker is the diesel generator engines were new. I think there were like 6 were brand new ones probably worth 20 gs a piece. So the Junk Guy feels guilty and mad that their trashing this stuff. The junk guy goes back to the Treasury Contract Officer and says Hey this is wasting Taxpayer money to trash this stuff. Why don't we sell out front of the base and you give me 20 % on each item I sell and the Treasury gets 80%. Well the Contract Officer gets mad and tells him I'm not paying you to sell it for us. I'm paying you to remove it I have no procedures to do that. Get it off the base whatever you want to do with it is your business. So the Junk Guy lives right down the road he puts it all in his front yard and sells it. Low and behold someone makes an allegation against the Junk Guy. So it ended up with an investigation that went no where. I heard the story from the Investigator's mouth. The Investigator could not believe the stupidity on the government's part Now multiply the above zillions of times and you get the point of the $600 hammer so now you know why we are in trouble. This stupid bull crap has gone on for years. Even when Internal Auditors point it out their ignored unless it gets in the funny papers. Bert how would you like to fight that Bureaucracy. You know even when honest hard working employees speak out they for the most part get ostracized. I know I did my part fighting corruption and waste, but it was like fighting an uphill battle.