Fractures in the Gospel Coalition?

That’s the best articulation of fundamentalist attitudes about associations by an evangelical I’ve ever read. Thabiti was my pastor for a few years. Love that guy.

I wonder if Dever feels the same way?

Probably.

Does anyone know if there’s a list of doctrinal positions that have to be held in order to belong to the Gospel Coalition? I had thought there was, but I can’t seem to find it.

I’m glad to see Anyabwile articulating a clear call for the repudiation of TD Jakes, but I’m beginning to wonder if they’ve recreated the fundamentalist movement’s problems in saying “We’re going to be together for the Gospel” (like the ‘20’s stand against modernism), but having not defined what those doctrines (the Gospel) really are.

If it were just guys like Driscoll and Wilson with others, that’s one thing. But now it seems like they’re just pulling in big names into events for the sake of having big name guys speak, and that’s alarming.

Jay,

Actually they have defined the gospel for TGC. All members must sign this statement of faith.

http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/about/foundation-documents/confession…

I too see a lot of parallels between this controversy and past fundamentalist controversies. It will be interesting how this plays out.

I wouldn’t worry that too many in the Gospel Coalition would ever invite TD Jakes or other “big names” to their churches. My guess is that MacDonald is in the minority among TGC members and committee members.

Shayne

Shayne,

I know how I’d answer, but what do you think?

My guess is the talk will die down and nothing will happen.

[Don Johnson] Shayne,

I know how I’d answer, but what do you think?

My guess is the talk will die down and nothing will happen.

Don,

Up to this point, the Elephant Room 2 discussion hasn’t happened. So I think I’ll wait and see how it plays out to really answer, and the Elephant Room 2 isn’t scheduled to happen until January, so it could be some time. I’m sure there are a lot of background discussions happening right now, as Thabiti indicated in some of his comments on his blog article. I don’t think this is a straight-up case of automatic and swift separation given the nature of the Elephant Room as a place for intense disagreement.

Shayne

My hope is that something happens, but I’m in ‘wait and see’ mode rather than ‘nothing will happen’ mode. I do think that it’s very, very interesting that the members are coming out and saying something publically against each other and that this is now the second or third time this year that we’re seeing some kind of faultlines forming in the TGC or in (broader) Evangelicalism over major doctrinal issues within their movement.

We’ve had:
MacArthur v. Driscoll and the YRR
Several CEs v. Rob Bell
TGC members v. James MacDonald & TD Jakes

Don’t get me wrong - I’m not hoping there’s a civil war. I’m simply interested in how this plays out with a movement that doesn’t typically wave the cape of separation at every bull in the ring.

I think the knock on YF’s and CE’s has been that they don’t separate sufficiently, and I think we’re seeing a change and a willingness to fight there that doesn’t have to be spearheaded by the same guy or org. all the time, which is a good sign.

It looks like the wait and see attitude is taken by Thabiti as well:

What should MacDonald do now? I’m not even sure. There’s an argument to be made for confrontation. There’s also an argument to be made for separation. If Jakes could be won over and would publicly teach orthodox Trinitarian views, that could be huge. If the discussion turns warm and fuzzy, “aren’t we all brothers in the end,” the damage could be irreparable–to everyone.

Phil Johnson weighs in http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2011/10/evangelical-freakshow.html on this and the Evangelical mess in general (emphasis his)….

Carl Trueman has for ages been writing eloquent critiques about American evangelicalism, pointing out the folly of our big-conference market-driven culture, and the cults of celebrity we have spawned and now revel in. The past two weeks have furnished plenty of proof that his concerns are not utterly far-fetched, and it’s no surprise that Dr. Trueman himself has noticed this.

If you haven’t read ” http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2011/10/the-confidence-men.php] Fixing the Indemnity ,” go read it. Trueman is one of those rare, candid voices of relentless sanity in the madhouse of the religious blogosphere. Here’s a sample:

“To be blunt: why so much noise about Jakes when Furtick and Noble have already apparently been established in this Elephant Room circle for some time? Frankly, they hardly seem any closer to Paul’s description of what an elder or overseer should be than the Bishop. Why all the hoohah and handwringing now about TD?”

Exactly!

So my question is - who are Furtick and Noble?

This has been the pattern before amongst evangelicals. Consider Lindsell and The Battle for the Bible. Did it create any real divides in evangelicalism? Don’t think so. Their default reaction is “wait and see”. I agree that is what Thabiti is saying. He is not willing to follow the logic of his own clearly stated objections.

[Jay C.] Phil Johnson weighs in http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2011/10/evangelical-freakshow.html on this and the Evangelical mess in general (emphasis his)….

Carl Trueman has for ages been writing eloquent critiques about American evangelicalism, pointing out the folly of our big-conference market-driven culture, and the cults of celebrity we have spawned and now revel in. The past two weeks have furnished plenty of proof that his concerns are not utterly far-fetched, and it’s no surprise that Dr. Trueman himself has noticed this.

If you haven’t read ” http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2011/10/the-confidence-men.php] Fixing the Indemnity ,” go read it. Trueman is one of those rare, candid voices of relentless sanity in the madhouse of the religious blogosphere. Here’s a sample:

“To be blunt: why so much noise about Jakes when Furtick and Noble have already apparently been established in this Elephant Room circle for some time? Frankly, they hardly seem any closer to Paul’s description of what an elder or overseer should be than the Bishop. Why all the hoohah and handwringing now about TD?”

Exactly!

So my question is - who are Furtick and Noble?

For Furtick’s interaction with Matt Chandler in Elephant Room 1, try watching this:

http://www.benarment.com/history_in_the_making/2011/04/furtick-v-chandl…

Furtick is a pastor in Charlotte I believe, and Noble is a mega church pastor in Anderson, SC. Think of Noble as the worst personality flaws of Driscoll multiplied by two without a theological seatbelt.

And Furtick is as bad as if not worse than Noble. Furtick has had sermon series entitled “Visionary Love, Dream Sex”, “Bringing Sexy Back”, and “All I Need to Know about Elevation Church I Learned from 80s Rock”.

If IFBx = Independent Fundamental Baptists (extreme), then these guys are SSCx = Seeker-Sensitive Church (extreme).

Paul’s applicable counsel to the original young evangelist/pastor is found in II Tim. 2:22—“Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.”

A significant issue with the CE’s and YRR’s is that they effectively ignore this maxim. The cultural enamorization with apparent success, leadership, and a celebrity-ish profile (youthful lusts all) is hardly being fled from, and the following of righteousness, etc., will be quick to follow. As this article states we are already seeing the inclusion of those who do not “call on the Lord out of a pure heart.”

There is only one meaning to the word “flee,” and NT Scripture only implores its’ use 4 times. Sooner or later for a movement to remain pure and effective in every way, the matters we as individuals and assemblies are commanded to flee (immorality, “idolatry,” love of money, and “youthful lusts”) are going to have to be approached seriously. I am not seeing that in evangelicalism as a whole, and this situation in particular.

Call me cynical, but I am not expecting much more than smoke from this little brouhaha. Sounds like Jakes is spewing heresy. He has already received his first and second admonition. Let’s see how interested these guys are in rejecting him, as per Scripture command.

[Greg Long] And Furtick is as bad as if not worse than Noble. Furtick has had sermon series entitled “Visionary Love, Dream Sex”, “Bringing Sexy Back”, and “All I Need to Know about Elevation Church I Learned from 80s Rock”.

If IFBx = Independent Fundamental Baptists (extreme), then these guys are SSCx = Seeker-Sensitive Church (extreme).

Greg,

If this keeps up, I am cutting off all support!! :bigsmile: :bigsmile: :bigsmile: