“Pastors will need to plead for unity and serve as peacemakers.”
“It’s too early to know exactly how vaccinations are going to play out in the church, but I don’t think you have to be an inveterate skeptic to imagine it’s more likely to bring division than unity. There will be some people who consider accepting the vaccination little better than accepting the mark of the beast and other people who believe the unvaccinated should not be permitted to pass through the doors of the church.” - Challies
There really must be a limit to the kind of conspiracy-theory stupidity pastors ought to be willing to tolerate. At a certain point, pastors are making a mistake to coddle and put up with foolishness. I will not tolerate Christian nationalism in the congregation I serve because it’s idolatry. I also won’t tolerate arguments about why we shouldn’t wear masks or why Gates and Soros are going to kill us. I’ve had multiple conversations about each of these and I’m getting really tired of it. I’ve forcefully put each of them down as graciously as possible, and attempted to bring in examples about how “the government” isn’t evil from my own career as a civil servant.
Every sub-culture is prone to foolishness. The Christian sub-culture is particularly gullible in its willingess to fall for silly social media conspiracy theories. I’ve actually considered writing a bulletin insert about how to interpret news, but I feel it’d be insulting.
To be honest, I’ve also begun admitting to myself that perhaps I’m an “elitist” snob. I don’t know what to think anymore. I feel culturally homeless, and alienated from so many Christians who seem to want to make love to the American flag. I don’t know why I can’t seem to communicate that this isn’t our home, and the White House will be burnt to the ground one day.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
[TylerR]To be honest, I’ve also begun admitting to myself that perhaps I’m an “elitist” snob. I don’t know what to think anymore. I feel culturally homeless, and alienated from so many Christians who seem to want to make love to the American flag. I don’t know why I can’t seem to communicate that this isn’t our home, and the White House will be burnt to the ground one day.
Amen to this. You’ve mentioned this numerous times on SI and I appreciate it every time. It’s one of the biggest flaws (dare I say, idols?) in the fundamental/evangelical church, in my opinion. I’m unable to even have this conversation with most of my friends as they are blind to it and vehemently resist even considering the issue.
[TylerR]The Christian sub-culture is particularly gullible in its willingess to fall for silly social media conspiracy theories. I’ve actually considered writing a bulletin insert about how to interpret news, but I feel it’d be insulting.
To be honest, I’ve also begun admitting to myself that perhaps I’m an “elitist” snob. I don’t know what to think anymore. I feel culturally homeless, and alienated from so many Christians who seem to want to make love to the American flag. I don’t know why I can’t seem to communicate that this isn’t our home, and the White House will be burnt to the ground one day.
Two points here. First, I am fully aligned with you. I feel culturally homeless as well. This is not how the church has always been. Second, I feel that the social media conspiracy theory attraction has grown exponentially, especially in the last few years. Especially areas like pedophilia, vaccines, masks, hydroxy….. I can’t put my finger on it, except that it has something to do with Trump pushing some of this narrative, and a growing Christian Nationalist movement. In my 45 years of going to church this is the worst that I have seen it. I am constantly reiterating that our war is not against flesh and blood. The Jews were under significantly more restrictions with the Romans, and for all of that Christ only responds to Rome in a single question in His ministry and His entire focus is on the Kingdom of God. But somehow in the last 3 years we have abandoned that in our churches and have embraced some type of idealogue that is focus on reinforcing a Christian US and using conspiracy theories to fuel this drive.
I can’t put my finger on it, except that it has something to do with Trump pushing some of this narrative, and a growing Christian Nationalist movement. In my 45 years of going to church this is the worst that I have seen it.
I’ve been wrestling quite a lot with root causes of this problem…. because, as far as teaching ministry goes, people aren’t open to considering alternatives at the surface level where controversial claims are clashing. And root problems are always better teaching targets anyway.
I do think part of it is a combination of (1) vastly increased quantity of information/claims that come to people, whether they want them or not; (2) natural human tendency to be intellectually lazy and oversimplify. But I sympathize, to some degree. The quantity of claims out there every day can be overwhelming, so choosing a simple narrative and then tuning out everything that doesn’t fit it, and grabbing on to everything that seems to confirm it, has strong appeal. Maybe a useful term is “information anxiety.” And people are hungry to feel certain about things rather than learn to be at peace with uncertainty.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I’ve been wrestling quite a lot with root causes of this problem…. because, as far as teaching ministry goes, people aren’t open to considering alternatives at the surface level where controversial claims are clashing. And root problems are always better teaching targets anyway.
Sadly, many evangelical churches (the entire spectrum including fundamentalists) deferred its discipleship on socio-political thought to political media types such as Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and now Tucker Carlson. Many conservative Christians listen or watch them religiously, which end up accumulating some 10-20 hrs per week, vs. the mere few hours per week that are spent at church or small groups. These media talking heads have become our political pastors and hold much more influence than most local pastors, compounded by the trend where Facebook memes are becoming one of the new ways that conservative Christians (as well as the rest of American culture) are getting their news about political issues. What does it look like to teach socio-political thought from a Biblical Worldview in the church? Or provide the tools to help those in your congregation understand how to think Biblically on socio-political issues? To help them understand that its not just progressive liberal thought/issues that do not align with Scripture. That there are also several instances/issues where conservative Christianity does not align with the current populist political conservatism that is being peddled by conservative talk radio, Prager U, Facebook Memes and etc….
Carl Henry, at the end of his life, when looking back on his legacy of challenging evangelical Christians towards socio-political activism, really bemoaned the fact that most conservative Christians embraced what he wrote about getting involved in socio-political activism, but ignored much of what he wrote about how essential it is for socially and politically active Christians to anchor their socio-political activism in a Christian world and life view that is governed by the Scriptures. I think that is where our challenge lies. To model and teach a Christian world and life view governed by the Scriptures that will help people discern how to think through socio-political activism/issues. This also includes the fact that we Christians are exiles as Tyler has alluded to.
I’m thinking of preaching a sermon in mid-October about the Christian and Politics. Sort of a Cliff-Notes sketch that explains (1) we aren’t called to be isolationists, (2) we aren’t called to wed the Church to the State; i.e. Constantinianism, but instead (3) we’re called to be ambassadors for a foreign nation. It’ll basically be a call to forgo Christian Nationalism. I need to find a good way to frame it, but I think I’m going to do it.
I just have to (1) finish a project for a DMin class, and (2) try to re-engage Hebrew 1 after years away from it (I’m taking it from BBS this Fall, so I can finally finish my MDiv). So, I’m sure I’ll have plenty of time to prepare this important sermon!!
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
I’m thinking of preaching a sermon in mid-October about the Christian and Politics. Sort of a Cliff-Notes sketch that explains (1) we aren’t called to be isolationists, (2) we aren’t called to wed the Church to the State; i.e. Constantinianism, but instead (3) we’re called to be ambassadors for a foreign nation. It’ll basically be a call to forgo Christian Nationalism. I need to find a good way to frame it, but I think I’m going to do it.
Our church too, but our main preaching/teaching elder will be doing a Christian and Politics series in the month of September as a topical break from the expository preaching that we normally do. I’ll send you links to the audio or video of his sermons if you’d like.
I’d appreciate that. I don’t have the time to do a series on the topic, and I really don’t want to. But, I do want to do something to bring clarity to this issue. We’ve already planned our an expository series beginning in September and I don’t want to move it.
The biggest thing that has opened my eyes to this problem is reading outside my comfort zone; particularly Hauerwas and Willimon’s Resident Aliens, Fitzgerald The Evangelicals, John Fea’s Was America Founded as a Christian Nation? Especially the former two. And, I’ve been working my way through the Oxford History of the United States series, and reading a lot about the Civil Rights era and the history of Jim Crow laws, and thereby filling in a lot of my history gaps.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
[TylerR]There really must be a limit to the kind of conspiracy-theory stupidity pastors ought to be willing to tolerate. At a certain point, pastors are making a mistake to coddle and put up with foolishness. I will not tolerate Christian nationalism in the congregation I serve because it’s idolatry. I also won’t tolerate arguments about why we shouldn’t wear masks or why Gates and Soros are going to kill us. I’ve had multiple conversations about each of these and I’m getting really tired of it. I’ve forcefully put each of them down as graciously as possible, and attempted to bring in examples about how “the government” isn’t evil from my own career as a civil servant.
Every sub-culture is prone to foolishness. The Christian sub-culture is particularly gullible in its willingess to fall for silly social media conspiracy theories. I’ve actually considered writing a bulletin insert about how to interpret news, but I feel it’d be insulting.
To be honest, I’ve also begun admitting to myself that perhaps I’m an “elitist” snob. I don’t know what to think anymore. I feel culturally homeless, and alienated from so many Christians who seem to want to make love to the American flag. I don’t know why I can’t seem to communicate that this isn’t our home, and the White House will be burnt to the ground one day.
Tyler, I often feel the same way. Maybe that’s scary for you. Mine started years ago as a scientist, but has expanded to the things you talk about. More than once I’ve been chastised because I teach real science as a scientist in a college science classroom. As a result, I am NEVER ASKED to help educate the church about science issues. I have tried to volunteer, but have recently decided to not ever do such things because all I will do is make people mad.
More than once I have had church members who I like personally tell me all about dark matter being God’s finger writing on the canvas of the cosmos, or the Big Bang (God said “bang,” and the universe was…). Never mind these areas are my specialty. My input isn’t wanted or ever listened to. I am wrong, period. No need to waste time talking to me about it. Let’s just read Genesis 1-3. That answers every question anyone can ask. No need to talk to a real scientist.
And sorry folks, an engineer is not a scientist. A doctor or dentist is not a scientist. Your elementary teacher who teaches 3rd grade science is not a scientist.
Then you go to the things you mention… I am a Republican, but just because it was said on Fox does not make it true. Let’s use some reason folks.
It gets awful lonely not having a reasonably educated person to talk to.
[Mark_Smith]More than once I have had church members who I like personally tell me all about dark matter being God’s finger writing on the canvas of the cosmos, or the Big Bang (God said “bang,” and the universe was…). Never mind these areas are my specialty. My input isn’t wanted or ever listened to. I am wrong, period. No need to waste time talking to me about it. Let’s just read Genesis 1-3. That answers every question anyone can ask. No need to talk to a real scientist.
Mark, I’m an engineer (MS in computer science with a BS in math), not a scientist, though I do have quite some (maybe a little higher than popular level) interest in science.
Genuine question — I’m curious if you believe better knowledge of the “Big Bang” as scientists see it could help my understanding of life as a Christian, or is it just a question of having the right knowledge to be able to speak about it at all? In other words, if I’m not in your field, is what you understand useful for me to know, or is it just a question of being accurate?
I ask, because in my field, I understand a *lot* about the way Wi-Fi and wired networking works, but most of what I know, while being somewhat helpful in helping myself or others with home networking issues, is not particularly useful outside my field, and I’m pretty sure no one in my church would ever need to know it, and most wouldn’t care to. Most people just want to know how to connect their devices to the internet so they can go on doing whatever it was they were doing, from research to games, and that’s all they need to know about Wi-Fi or networking. Would better scientific knowledge of the Big Bang help us with a biblical understanding of the universe and our place in it?
Dave Barnhart
In your analogy, what if your church and almost every Christian you knew refused to believe Wi-Fi existed. That’s the comparison to the Big Bang. Even if you hooked up a device and showed them the evidence of Wi-Fi, what if no one wanted to hear anything about it?
I think things like the “Big Bang” matter to Christian because they are pure evidence of what did happen in the past. Ignoring them does not help. The main problem is, people (Christians and non-Christian, scientist and non-scientist) use the wrong definition of Big Bang. They think it is something it is not.
With Mark mostly on this one. I’ve come to realize that big bang cosmology is actually much more Christian than most (all?) of the alternatives duking it out in the scientific community… theories like universe having no beginning, multiverse… I think it was Craig I was reading who was debunking some kind of “brains” theory. Much of the energy seems to be going into finding a way to deny a dramatic beginning for the universe at a moment in something pretty much like time. … and Craig/Plantinga argue that the reason for this effort is, in part, that sudden beginnings all point to a creator in one way or another. So they see these non-BB hypotheses as efforts to try to solve the first cause problem, somehow eliminating it.
… so I understood them, anyway.
It’s fascinating and, at times, very weird, stuff (there’s nothing in sci-fi that is weirder than some of what’s in physics/cosomology these days).
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
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