What Is (and Isn't) at Stake for Obamacare in the Hobby Lobby Case

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SUPREME_COURT_BIRTH_CONTROL?S…

The court stressed that its ruling applies only to corporations that are under the control of just a few people in which there is no essential difference between the business and its owners.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/06/30/supreme-court-ho…

The Supreme Court ruled 5-4 Monday that closely held corporations with religious objections to the “contraception mandate” in President Obama’s health-care law cannot be forced to offer birth control coverage. … [directly impacts:] On one side were the owners of two for-profit companies — the giant Hobby Lobby chain of crafts stores and Conestoga Wood Specialties Corp., a Mennonite-owned cabinet maker — claiming they should not have to include in their insurance plans certain forms of birth control that they equate with abortion.

I don’t understand this lawsuit. How is Hobby Lobby, refusing to provide coverage for contraceptives to their employees, any different than the government requiring Hobby Lobby to provide coverage? Hobby Lobby has a religious conviction against doing this, but they are then forcing their religious conviction onto their employees, who may or may not share that religious conviction. I think that if Hobby Lobby gets an exemption (which I don’t think will happen), it has some very potentially negative consequences for us as Christians. What happens when you, a Christian, work for a Muslim owned company? or a Jewish company? That wants to then force their religious conviction onto their employees.

Sometimes, I think that we as Christians view the world through only one lens without understanding the consequence. Our job as Christians (and the church) is not to fix the world or correct the wrongs. But instead of religious freedoms, we want to essentially establish a Christian nation and force a narrow view onto the populace.

[dgszweda]

Hobby Lobby has a religious conviction against doing this, but they are then forcing their religious conviction onto their employees, who may or may not share that religious conviction. I think that if Hobby Lobby gets an exemption (which I don’t think will happen), it has some very potentially negative consequences for us as Christians. What happens when you, a Christian, work for a Muslim owned company? or a Jewish company? That wants to then force their religious conviction onto their employees.

I’m not sure I follow. Where is the compulsion that I work for a Muslim company? Most jobs are described as “at will” relationships…they can fire me, or I can leave, and that’s that. When I take a job, I know that I’m signing up for certain corporate values. No one forces me to take that job; no one forces me to stay there.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/caribou.asp

Comment: My daughter worked for them as a barista / store assistant manager at the time. [Then a “a Shariah-compliant firm”]

Much has happened since: was publicly traded on the NYSE … then privatized again and owned (with Peet’s coffee and Douwe Egberts) by Joh. A. Benckiser SE

Hobby Lobby does provide health insurance for contraceptives …

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/03/hobby-lobby-supreme-court-obamacare

​With these limitations:

They don’t object to covering all contraception, only the emergency contraceptive pills Plan B and Ella and intrauterine devices (IUDs)

This is not so much “an Obamacare” case … but rather a significant religious liberty case.

It’s very narrow … only impacts “closely held corporations”. Probably few of us work for them. Publicly held corporations (have stock the trade publicly) offer all kinds of heath benefits I might object too … eg … insurance for abortions

WSJ: http://online.wsj.com/articles/supreme-court-exempts-some-companies-fro…

​

Justice Alito framed the ruling as “very specific” to the case before the court, and argued that no women would be burdened with the costs of contraceptives because their employers objected.

Instead, he suggested that the Obama administration extend to for-profit companies the same accommodation it had to religiously affiliated nonprofits that object to contraception—that is, requiring that insurers provide contraceptives without charging premiums to employers or copayments to individuals. …

Behind the challengers are dozens of other religious business owners who say they have been waiting on the court’s decision to shape their future health-coverage offerings to workers.

Forty for-profit companies have won injunctions shielding them from enforcement of the provision while challenges are under court review.

​Full PDF of ruling:

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/Hobbylobbyruling.pdf

[M. Osborne]

dgszweda wrote:

Hobby Lobby has a religious conviction against doing this, but they are then forcing their religious conviction onto their employees, who may or may not share that religious conviction. I think that if Hobby Lobby gets an exemption (which I don’t think will happen), it has some very potentially negative consequences for us as Christians. What happens when you, a Christian, work for a Muslim owned company? or a Jewish company? That wants to then force their religious conviction onto their employees.

I’m not sure I follow. Where is the compulsion that I work for a Muslim company? Most jobs are described as “at will” relationships…they can fire me, or I can leave, and that’s that. When I take a job, I know that I’m signing up for certain corporate values. No one forces me to take that job; no one forces me to stay there.

That is nice when you have options and those options are aligned with your values. We also know that the idea of companies being led by conservative leaders is a shrinking notion. The world will continue to become more secular and more hostile to Christ. So instead of pushing for freedom amongst the employee base (an employee is free to choose or not choose contraceptive), we are pushing the values at the top onto the subordinates. Right now it doesn’t seem to be a big deal amongst conservatives because 1) they agree with Hobby Lobby and 2) they have other places to work. Change Hobby Lobby’s push for one that is hostile to Christians, and remove or limit other less hostile options with other companies and quickly the logic turns its tables onto us and we don’t like it.

Hobby Lobby has a religious conviction against doing this, but they are then forcing their religious conviction onto their employees, who may or may not share that religious conviction.

Not following you here, Dave. How is HL forcing their religious views onto their employees? So far as I know, they are not forcing their employees to do anything, or to avoid anything. Those employees are welcome to do whatever they want in terms of their birth control. HL is simply speaking of what they, under their religious beliefs, will pay for. To paint this as “forcing their beliefs on others” is both inaccurate and prejudicial.

Prior to the ACA, no one would have suggested that a companies refusal to include certain things in their healthcare policies was forcing their religious beliefs on others. So why is it now so?

Your argument would make sense if, and only if, HL was forbidding their employees from using Plan B or an IUD in any situation. They are not. They are simply saying, “We will not pay for it.”

It is staggering that there are four justices, numerous legislators, and a president who think that they can compel people can be compelled to violate their religious beliefs? And it’s staggering that people here think that. I can understand political hacks doing this. I can understand activists trying to do this. But normal people? Why should HL be compelled to pay for something they believe is murder?

So instead of pushing for freedom amongst the employee base (an employee is free to choose or not choose contraceptive), we are pushing the values at the top onto the subordinates.

Employees are free to choose or not choose a contraceptive, aren’t they? No one at HL is forcing them to not choose something, are they?

Change Hobby Lobby’s push for one that is hostile to Christians, and remove or limit other less hostile options with other companies and quickly the logic turns its tables onto us and we don’t like it.

Give us an example.

Normally I would agree with Dave on this. Politically active Christian conservatives seem to have a hard time understanding that this is not a Christian nation nor does Christianity have favored status. The freedoms available to Christians have to be available to every religion. But in areas like school prayer, the same people that are demanding school prayer would have a conniption if the person leading the prayer was Muslim.

That being said, I think this Hobby Lobby decision is different and I support them. No one is required to work for Hobby Lobby so there is no real coercion going on. The worst that happens is that someone has to buy their own birth control, which is probably $10 or so.

Larry,

The law is that contraceptive coverage must be provided to employees under their companies health care coverage. HL is effectively stating that even though the federal law provides for this, that other companies provide this and that even many Christians take contraception, because HL doesn’t believe in it, they are forcing their belief and will not provide that coverage. The fact that they are withholding coverage could prevent some employees who may not be able to afford these products to provide such a burden as to effectively disallow it for a given employee.

It is not staggering to think that a government is compelled to violate someone’s religious beliefs. In fact it is more staggering that we have had the religious freedoms that we do have. Out of the 10,000+ years of humanity, we have a narrow 200 years where there is some freedom. This is not the norm, nor will it most likely last. And in many cases there are laws that you and I may agree with, that are causing problems with other people’s religious beliefs.

[dgszweda]

The fact that they are withholding coverage could prevent some employees who may not be able to afford these products to provide such a burden as to effectively disallow it for a given employee.

http://ec.princeton.edu/ASECPricingReport.pdf

The average price for the branded product (Plan B One-Step®) is $48.

See earlier post with this:

Justice Alito framed the ruling as “very specific” to the case before the court, and argued that no women would be burdened with the costs of contraceptives because their employers objected

[dgszweda]

I don’t understand this lawsuit. How is Hobby Lobby, refusing to provide coverage for contraceptives to their employees, any different than the government requiring Hobby Lobby to provide coverage? Hobby Lobby has a religious conviction against doing this, but they are then forcing their religious conviction onto their employees, who may or may not share that religious conviction. I think that if Hobby Lobby gets an exemption (which I don’t think will happen), it has some very potentially negative consequences for us as Christians. What happens when you, a Christian, work for a Muslim owned company? or a Jewish company? That wants to then force their religious conviction onto their employees.

Sometimes, I think that we as Christians view the world through only one lens without understanding the consequence. Our job as Christians (and the church) is not to fix the world or correct the wrongs. But instead of religious freedoms, we want to essentially establish a Christian nation and force a narrow view onto the populace.

You have the argument backwards. Hobby Lobby isn’t forcing anything on its employees nor demanding their employees violate their individual beliefs. They are still free to purchase their own contraceptives, purchase their own health care, or find work somewhere else. It is Hobby Lobby that faced having something forced on them that violated their beliefs.

[dgszweda]

M. Osborne wrote:

dgszweda wrote:

Hobby Lobby has a religious conviction against doing this, but they are then forcing their religious conviction onto their employees, who may or may not share that religious conviction. I think that if Hobby Lobby gets an exemption (which I don’t think will happen), it has some very potentially negative consequences for us as Christians. What happens when you, a Christian, work for a Muslim owned company? or a Jewish company? That wants to then force their religious conviction onto their employees.

I’m not sure I follow. Where is the compulsion that I work for a Muslim company? Most jobs are described as “at will” relationships…they can fire me, or I can leave, and that’s that. When I take a job, I know that I’m signing up for certain corporate values. No one forces me to take that job; no one forces me to stay there.

That is nice when you have options and those options are aligned with your values. We also know that the idea of companies being led by conservative leaders is a shrinking notion. The world will continue to become more secular and more hostile to Christ. So instead of pushing for freedom amongst the employee base (an employee is free to choose or not choose contraceptive), we are pushing the values at the top onto the subordinates. Right now it doesn’t seem to be a big deal amongst conservatives because 1) they agree with Hobby Lobby and 2) they have other places to work. Change Hobby Lobby’s push for one that is hostile to Christians, and remove or limit other less hostile options with other companies and quickly the logic turns its tables onto us and we don’t like it.

‘m still not seeing this. Can you give a secular corollary?