"Your confidence in making decisions is directly related to your confidence in God himself"
[Jim]Man, Jim, I was thinking just the opposite. Another scientist reversing the order of reality by trying to force the Bible to submit to scientific theory instead of surrendering scientific theory to the Bible.Mark_Smith wrote:
Well, that is great for you. When I teach a room full of college students, most of whom have been taught young earth creationism at home and church, that modern cosmology measures the age of the universe to be 13.6 billion years old…I ask myself A LOT whether I have wasted my time earning a PhD and teaching science!!!
What I mean by this is I often feel like I am perceived by students and fellow Christians as “destroying” the faith of people by having to teach this. I always do it carefully, but people aren’t usually nuanced enough to get my points. So, I often wonder whether my career choice was a good one.
I think you could be very effective as a resource / speaker for campus Christian groups. You know … “I have a PhD in Physics (or whatever it is) and I have faith in Christ and I believe the Bible”
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
He said:
When I teach a room full of college students, most of whom have been taught young earth creationism at home and church, that modern cosmology measures the age of the universe to be 13.6 billion years old.
My comments:
- Is not this a true statement: “modern cosmology measures the age of the universe to be 13.6 billion years old”
- Its’ different than saying “I believe the world to be 13.6 B years old”
You are correct. I MOST FIRMLY BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS THE SOURCE TO GO TO ON THE QUESTION OF THE SOURCE OF THE UNIVERSE. I believe personally God created the Universe recently and is young.
THAT BEING SAID, science has not determined that. So, since I am paid to be a scientist and to teach science, I teach the scientific conclusions, but I always question them when I can (without being fired, to be honest;-) ). To be frank, if I ever stood up in a classroom and taught what I really think I have little doubt I would not get my contract renewed! Why, because the name of the game in science is “peer review”, and there is no peer reviewed accepted “creationist” science nor will the “powers that be” allow it to develop!
Anyway, believing in a young earth IS NOT AN EXCUSE to not understand the basics of modern cosmology and evolution!
By the way, see, Chip just assumed I was one of those wacky scientists off on his own…
Want to be a leper? Walk into the average conservative Christian church and tell them you are a scientist with a PhD. Let’s just say the lack of fellowship is telling.
Anyway, I apologize for hi-jacking the thread. Back to regular business!
I really think the Lord can use your hard-earned expertise to defend the Christian worldview. You can do it wherever you’re at. You can do it somewhere else. I wouldn’t say your education is a waste. We need Bible-believing folks who can interact with the secular academy on scientific issues. I am glad you have the ability to do that. I am sure God put you where you are for a reason; or perhaps He has something in store in the future. Your education is not in vain!
If you were in my area, I’d be inviting you over for an espresso! There aren’t many Christians with PhD’s in scientific disciplines. It is a shame you get maligned by brethren for it.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Sorry I misunderstood and falsely accused you Mark. Thanks for clarifying.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
[Mark_Smith]All of these books mentioned are rock-solid Calvinist, and often Reformed. If you aren’t sold out on that theology, avoid them.
I have read all of those mentioned: Decision Making, Found God’s Will, and Just Do Something. I found little to help me since the worldview is so different from mine.
The worst of the 3 is Just Do Something. Kevin De Young’s quintessential example of decision making is his grandfather who managed to live 50+ years as a Christian and NEVER ONCE wondered if any decision he made was in God’s will.In fact, the book emphasizes that when Kevin asked him about if his decisions were in God’s will, he didn’t even relate to why anyone would ask the question! That was lifted up as the example to follow. No thanks!
You did say that the listed books are “often Reformed.” But you also said that they were “all” (not some) “rock-solid Calvinist,” so that “If you aren’t sold out on that theology, avoid them” and (with specific reference to Friesen’s book) “I found little to help me since the worldview is so different from mine.” I have to disagree as to Friesen’s book, which I read a little more than a year after graduating BJU, having been raised Nazarene (Arminian all the way). Friesen’s book is saturated with scripture, not Calvinism, and it changed my whole view of the interplay of decision-making and God’s will. It’s also tightly reasoned, which should resonate with you. You don’t have to be a Calvinist to be persuaded and educated by Friesen’s book; I certainly wasn’t. I think it’s a grave mistake to reject the book because you’re not a Calvinist.
I think this simple sentence at the end of Tim’s article says a whole lot:
“Decisions are difficult simply because we do not trust God with the results of our decisions.”
I haven’t read any of the books mentioned, but listened to a message awhile back from JMac called “Knowing and Doing God’s Will”. He basically concludes that every decision we make is “in God’s will”. How do we know? Because it was done ;)
No matter what major decisions we make and how these might “appear” (we walk by faith not site), God is using it. Obviously we have a great responsibility in our choices, but what an exciting and liberating truth to know that our decisions are never “wrong” and that God is always at work in each of our lives for our good and His glory—either in spite of our choices or as a result of them.
You have summed up perfectly MacArthur’s and DeYoung’s view.
I was rereading DeYoung last night (it is a short book). Kevin DeYoung EMPHATICALLY suggests for singles who want to get married to just go pick a Christian of the opposite sex (who isn’t married or improperly divorced, etc…) and get “hitched” (he uses that ugly term several times…I guess trying to sound hip) and start making babies. Yes, he literally says that. Just pick one you can put up with and go at it! He even refers to hearing Elizabeth Elliot one time saying that she wished she could line up women on one side and men on the other, pair them up, and let them have at it in marriage!
I’m am shocked…but others apparently find it liberating. Hey, so be it I guess.
No problem! I probably wasn’t clear enough.
Pardon me. I retract my assertion that unless you are sold out for Calvinism to avoid it because you won’t like it. You apparently claim to be Arminian but like it. Counterexample!
[Mark_Smith]Pardon me. I retract my assertion that unless you are sold out for Calvinism to avoid it because you won’t like it. You apparently claim to be Arminian but like it. Counterexample!
Actually, my desired result was for you to revisit Friesen’s book and, more importantly, the scripture he analyzes without such a strong extra-scriptural worldview bias that you miss what the scriptures are teaching.
[Mark_Smith]You have summed up perfectly MacArthur’s and DeYoung’s view.
I was rereading DeYoung last night (it is a short book). Kevin DeYoung EMPHATICALLY suggests for singles who want to get married to just go pick a Christian of the opposite sex (who isn’t married or improperly divorced, etc…) and get “hitched” (he uses that ugly term several times…I guess trying to sound hip) and start making babies. Yes, he literally says that. Just pick one you can put up with and go at it! He even refers to hearing Elizabeth Elliot one time saying that she wished she could line up women on one side and men on the other, pair them up, and let them have at it in marriage!
I’m am shocked…but others apparently find it liberating. Hey, so be it I guess.
The others here who have read DeYoung’s book already know this, but those who haven’t read the book won’t necessarily know: what you’ve said here isn’t an accurate or fair paraphrase of what DeYoung says.
[dmyers] The others here who have read DeYoung’s book already know this, but those who haven’t read the book won’t necessarily know: what you’ve said here isn’t an accurate or fair paraphrase of what DeYoung says.made me curious, so i looked up the section about this. it’s pages 104–108, and includes a lot of what mark smith claims, especially page 108.
What DeYoung actually said,
Men, if you want to be married, find a godly gal, treat her right, talk to her parents, pop the question, tie the knot, and start making babies.
In line with that, among other things, he also denies that there is one particular person to find and marry and he affirms that men are generally lazy in pursuit of marriage.
So now that we have his words, perhaps someone who disagrees can tell us what is biblically wrong with them.
[ChrisC]dmyers wrote:
The others here who have read DeYoung’s book already know this, but those who haven’t read the book won’t necessarily know: what you’ve said here isn’t an accurate or fair paraphrase of what DeYoung says.made me curious, so i looked up the section about this. it’s pages 104–108, and includes a lot of what mark smith claims, especially page 108.
Sigh.
Mark Smith said this about DeYoung’s approach re marriage: “Kevin DeYoung EMPHATICALLY suggests for singles who want to get married to just go pick a Christian of the opposite sex (who isn’t married or improperly divorced, etc…) and get “hitched” (he uses that ugly term several times…I guess trying to sound hip) and start making babies. Yes, he literally says that. Just pick one you can put up with and go at it!” (“Hitched” is an ugly term? News to me. Uglier than “go at it”?)
What DeYoung actually said (in his one-sentence summary of his multi-page discussion of how to approach the decision to get married) was: “Men, if you want to be married, find a godly gal, treat her right, talk to her parents, pop the question, tie the knot, and start making babies.” So Mark Smith omitted some fairly important parts of the process even in the one-sentence-summary version, including: (1) finding a godly gal (not just a Christian), (2) treating her right (clearly in the course of some period of dating/courtship, and requiring a certain level of Christian maturity on the guy’s part), (3) and talking to her parents (as part of getting wise counsel) — all before popping the question, tying the knot, etc.
Mark Smith and ChrisC omit the decision-making framework DeYoung advocates at greater length earlier in the book (pp. 88-98) and reiterates in the job/marriage chapter: (1) search the scriptures, (2) get wise counsel, (3) pray, and (4) make a decision. DeYoung spends pages walking the reader through the application of that framework both to job decisions and marriage, with much more elaboration than Mark Smith’s description gives him credit for (pp. 99-113, where ChrisC’s linked excerpt ends). As Larry just asked, what is biblically wrong with that framework?
Mark Smith said this about the Elisabeth Elliott anecdote: “He even refers to hearing Elisabeth Elliot one time saying that she wished she could line up women on one side and men on the other, pair them up, and let them have at it in marriage!” (Lots of “having at it” again.) What DeYoung actually says about Elliot is this: “There are always plenty of exceptions, but as a general rule, Christians are waiting too long to get married. There are too many great Christians out there who should be married to one of the other great Christians out there. I remember Elisabeth Elliot saying one time while speaking at a large Christian singles ministry, she desperately wanted to line up all the men on one wall, all the women on the other, count off (one, one; two, two; three, three) and pair up those singles, and get them married.” Doesn’t sound quite so offensive, does it?
As I said, anyone who has read DeYoung’s book would know immediately that Mark Smith’s paraphrase wasn’t accurate or fair. Anyone who reads the chapter that is linked by ChrisC (thank you for that, Chris) will know the same.
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