The Teaching Office

Well said, Dr. Bauder.

Many churches have “bolt-on” programs with doctrinal components. Examples. AWANA and Growing Kids God’s Way.

• Todd Mitchell has written a helpful review of the rewards culture of AWANA. I have concerns that they truly do not understand “believe”. I wrote to AWANA HQ about this when I was a pastor and pointed out that there is a “commit” component to “believe” (seen in the translation of πιστεύω as “commit” in John 2:24). This was in response to AWANA material that specifically stated that “believe” does not mean “commit to”
• Much has been written about Growing Kids God’s Way (sample … Google for more)
• Same could be said for the financial improvement programs (Dave Ramsey)
• 20-40 years ago Gothard was the go to bolt on youth program!

There should be pastoral oversight over all of these bolt-on programs. Just because they work and are popular doesn’t mean they are doctrinally and methodologically sound.

AWANA a “third rail” … touch it and you are toast

Our church uses Kids for Truth. My kids have grown out of it now but I found it to be an excellent program. Doctrinally excellent.

I have always had a big problem with the award culture in AWANA. If oversight is not controlled, the entire program quickly becomes about saying the most verses vice actual comprehension. In AWANA a while back, I had a young child perfectly recite Jn 3:16 to me. He’d already had a teacher sign his book. I asked him what it meant. He shrugged his shoulders and said, “I don’t know!”

This is not necessarily a fault of AWANA; but a Pastor must emphasize the goals of the program up front. It’s not about AWANA bucks or trips to the AWANA Store, or about the prize at the end of year ceremony. It’s about comprehension of the material and the Gospel. This goes back to Bauder’s remark about responsibility for overseeing programs in the church.

I thought heavily about using Kids4Truth this coming Fall for Bible Club. In the end, I decided against it. We bought their VBS for this Summer, and while I found the content fine, the layout and organization of the program is haphazard and amateurish. The program was very hard to understand. I wasn’t impressed. I feared their Kids Club material would be the same. Tell me what you’ve experienced with it, if you would!

We’ve used K4T for about 5 years here, as well as some of the time we were in Maine. I am very happy with the content, and the program itself is very customizable to your situation. The HQ staff is very easy to work with, and would be something I would consider a strength of using the materials.

The potential downsides:

• The content strikes some as being very intensive, initially- in my experience, more the parents and workers than kids.
• They provide a lot of content- probably more than you’ll be able to squeeze in if you run Sept-May.
• The lessons that teachers give to the kids again, strikes many as being pretty intensive. Some get overwhelmed, and struggle to relate it to children.

That being said, in my experience, kids adjust well to it, and the principles they retain provide an excellent doctrinal foundation upon which to build as they get older.
If you want anything more than this, feel free to contact me!

“Ultimately, the congregation must define the church’s doctrinal parameters.”

Yes, that is true… in the congregational system.

But in Christianity, the apostles of Jesus Christ define the church’s doctrinal parameters.

Kevin - you forgot Acts 16:4. If the congregational provided the ultimate approval at the business meeting, then why did Luke approve the apostles lying to all the brethren in Derbe and Lystra?

recognize as Apostles in 2014.

[Ted Bigelow]

SNIP

But in Christianity, the apostles of Jesus Christ define the church’s doctrinal parameters.

SNIP

Rob - the apostles in 2014 are the same apostles in the first century.

Jesus Christ made a promise to them by which they are the foundation of all Christian doctrine. Referring to the teaching ministry of His Holy Spirit to His own personally chosen apostles, Christ said, “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13) . The “you’ of this verse is not Kevin’s church, but the apostles.

So those who believe Christ to be the Son of God incarnate believe the writings of His apostles to be all the truth, which are collected in the 27 books of the NT. These men’s writings, and nothing else, are the ultimate parameters of doctrine, not the people of each church, as Kevin teaches (congregationalism).

If you accept what Kevin teaches you accept defection from Christ. His teaching not-so-subtly shifts submission to the apostles and the ministry they received directly from Christ to the people of one’s church. Principally, it is no different than Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, or the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Hence, the authority in his religion defects from Jesus Christ’s apostles to his own church, from God, to man.

That is exactly right Ted. Kevin glossed right over Acts 16:4, which alone renders his entire article unhelpful.

Acts 15:6 - “Then the apostles and the elders assembled to consider this matter.”

Acts 16:4 - “As they traveled through the towns, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders at Jerusalem for them to observe.”

Who met to decide? Who made the decision? The apostles and elders. Kevin apparently saw that the church welcomed them and therefore had a say in the matter. No, as you see from the text, the church AGREED with the decision of the apostles and elders.

Kevin’s series has reminded me the words of William Tyndale: “If God spare my life, ere many years pass, I will cause a boy that driveth the plow shall know more of the Scripture than thou dost.” The simple who know the text demonstrate more knowledge of the Scriptures than many “doctors” today.

Paul addressed the situation where the church sets doctrine and allows the preacher to preach within those parameters in 2 Tim 4:3. I wonder how much error Kevin thinks the new pastor must operate within to maintain integrity. Teaching the truth by permission of the church is the mantra now I guess.

I do understand that the situation Kevin has described in his series is necessary to perpetuate his employment, but it is worldly thinking rather than Christian thinking on these topics. If Jesus is Lord of the church, then his words stand as the final word. Kevin’s wisdom runs contrary to the scriptures and has perpetuated a false method, which will only lead to more ruin.

[TylerR]

I thought heavily about using Kids4Truth this coming Fall for Bible Club. In the end, I decided against it. We bought their VBS for this Summer, and while I found the content fine, the layout and organization of the program is haphazard and amateurish. The program was very hard to understand. I wasn’t impressed. I feared their Kids Club material would be the same. Tell me what you’ve experienced with it, if you would!

I’ve never used the VBS program - didn’t even know there was one, but I introduced K4T to the church I was pastoring almost 10 years ago. Even though I have been out of the pulpit for some time now, my wife and I decided to continue using it as our base homeschool Bible material for our elementary aged children. I love the program for both the kids and the adults involved. As Greg mentioned, the younger children cannot use the program without parental involvement, but the same thing is true in Awana and with school homework. The most important difference I found between Awana and K4T was the focus. Awana is more of an evangelistic program, while K4T is most emphatically designed to be a discipleship program. That is a philosophical approach that agrees with my understanding of the purpose of the church. It is primarily for the saved, not for the lost. Of course, there are many other issues with Awana that started me looking for an alternative in the first place. Frankly, the program is a lot simpler to run than Awana, and it is very malleable as Greg noted.

This:

I do understand that the situation Kevin has described in his series is necessary to perpetuate his employment, but it is worldly thinking rather than Christian thinking on these topics. If Jesus is Lord of the church, then his words stand as the final word. Kevin’s wisdom runs contrary to the scriptures and has perpetuated a false method, which will only lead to more ruin.

was a really cheap shot.

Tyler, I have addressed multiple times how seminaries as currently run are hindering the local church. When pastors are trained for years and are somehow still unable to train their own people as the NT says, then something is fundamentally wrong with the system. There is nothing wrong with perpetuating employment. It is only wrong if the system is wrong.

I’ve been around long enough to see the result of churches that think they don’t need seminaries. While most are in their second generation, a few are in their third. The first pastor passed the role to a second generation who was usually the youth pastor (a title that is another subject) that he trained. Many times that heir was also his son. Like copies of copies on an old Xerox machine, the next generation was slightly less brilliant than the original. I’ve yet to see any whose theology and methods were sound but they were “safe” because that’s what the patriarch believed. Are seminaries perfect? Of course not. Is practical training in a local church setting a necessity? Certainly. Seminary training should be coupled with a meaningful internship.