Bob Jones University and the Bruins Foundation are hosting “An Evening with Tim Tebow”

This was me after I saw a CCM artist in concert in the early 1990s. (j/k)

Very seriously, let’s not use the phrase “groupie mentality.” A groupie is not merely a person with no particular objections to a person speaking at one’s favored venue. It is a person who is so enamored of a group that they will follow it around with the goal of forming personal, often sexual, relationships with the band members. Even Deadheads and Phish-heads do not quite qualify, to draw a picture.

I’ve got very real concerns that too many “fundagelicals” are insufficiently selective in the teachers they listen to and such, but using such phrases does nothing good in this case.

[Bert Perry]

This was me after I saw a CCM artist in concert in the early 1990s. (j/k)

Very seriously, let’s not use the phrase “groupie mentality.” A groupie is not merely a person with no particular objections to a person speaking at one’s favored venue. It is a person who is so enamored of a group that they will follow it around with the goal of forming personal, often sexual, relationships with the band members. Even Deadheads and Phish-heads do not quite qualify, to draw a picture.

I’ve got very real concerns that too many “fundagelicals” are insufficiently selective in the teachers they listen to and such, but using such phrases does nothing good in this case.

You’re right (although in my weak defense I repeated Don’s “Christian groupie mentality” remark which I thought was lame and unnecessary). Like Adam and Eve. He made me do it. No offense intended. My apologies to anyone understanding the word in that sense. And I’m sure Don didn’t mean it with the above connotations.

I wasn’t aware of the full connotation Bert mentions, I was thinking of the term in terms of the second definition on Dictionary.com: “an ardent fan of a celebrity or of a particular activity: a tennis groupie.” Link here.

I’ll try to refrain from the term, but the fact is, usage determines meaning, not etymology and the term is in wide usage in our culture. I think one could be a little less legalistic about it.

As for Steve Green, I would echo the discomfort mentioned earlier, although I would feel somewhat less offended. Mr. Green has accomplished something of substance with his life. Tebow is a mediocre athlete (at the professional level) who is cashing in on his Christian celebrity status. Somehow he is viewed with the nobility of martyrs of the past. I can’t see that.

Nevertheless, I don’t know why we need hero worship in Christian education. Why bring in either of these guys? Why can’t the same ends be achieved by faithful biblical preaching and lifting up the leadership of faithful pastors and missionaries as models to follow?

You’ll see the connotations I was referring to. You can also infer it from the uses right after the initial definition: “Johnny Depp; only thirteen years old, he lost his virginity to a groupie” and such.

Also, it’s worth noting that people who do not object to Tebow speaking really don’t even fit the first definition; they’re not necessarily following him around from BJU to Winona to wherever he goes. They just think he’s an interesting person with a biography that indicates some very real stands for Christ in some very difficult situations.

Regarding “why can’t we follow the example of pastors and missionaries”, we need to remember that a lot of faithful Christians never hold church office, and for them, the examples of successful Christian businessmen, musicians, athletes, and such can be very encouraging. Even for those who are called to serve as pastors or missionaries, they serve as an example of those who need to preach Christ without offending HR. It’s not always easy.

Ron Bean: The Sharper Iron 2018 Pinup

That’ll drive the traffic …AWAY

Tebow is a mediocre athlete at the professional level. It’s hardly a disputable point. It’s hardly demeaning. Yet some exalt him as if he is some noble hero. Incomprehensible.

Bert, I am well aware of the whole dictionary.com page. It is quite clear that the word has the connotation you object to. My point is that in widespread usage in our culture the word has other connotations as well. Focusing on one connotation alone is an error. Given the scurrilous connotation, I’ll try to avoid it. But denying the widespread usage is foolish.

Anyway, I think pretty much all that needs to be said has been said. I don’t get the constant huffing and puffing from you guys. I will respond to challenges and comments as I see fit, but I think the positions are pretty well established. You guys need to give it a rest.

Don’t waste your time using Dictionary.com. Merriam-Webster is always the better way to go; I know because I edit books all day, and the publishers I do work for always demand I use Merriam-Webster for correct spellings. It’s the publishing standard for US usage.

Here’s the link to their definition of groupie. There’s nothing sexual insinuated, so maybe some groupies become sexual, but this quality may not be intrinsic to the word itself.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/groupie

Just wanted to set the record straight to avoid yet another reason for anyone to jump on a brother here, though I’m certain every other opportunity will be exploited to the fullest degree.

[Don Johnson]

Tebow is a mediocre athlete at the professional level. It’s hardly a disputable point. It’s hardly demeaning. Yet some exalt him as if he is some noble hero. Incomprehensible.

Don, I think you miss the entire point of Tim Tebow’s professional career. Those of us who live in the south know of Tebow’s exceptional QB skills at Florida (and we Dawgs don’t like him for that). Tim Tebow’s “mediocre” career was made “mediocre” in large part due to his Christian testimony. His playing time and opportunities were limited as teams saw him as a liability (yet T.O., Ray Lewis, and Michael Vick continued play). Fans derided him and wanted the teams to trade him. He chose his relationship with Christ over the success that “going along” might have brought.

p.s. Baseball was a diversion. Bo Jackson and Michael Jordan never made it out of the minors either.

Bo Jackson was an All-Star while playing for the White Sox.

[John E.]

Bo Jackson was an All-Star while playing for the White Sox.

I stand corrected. I was remembering him breaking the bat over his knee in frustration and just never remembered that it was in the majors. My point still stands though, that baseball was not Tebow’s primary skill.

[ejohansen]

Don Johnson wrote:

Tebow is a mediocre athlete at the professional level. It’s hardly a disputable point. It’s hardly demeaning. Yet some exalt him as if he is some noble hero. Incomprehensible.

Don, I think you miss the entire point of Tim Tebow’s professional career. Those of us who live in the south know of Tebow’s exceptional QB skills at Florida (and we Dawgs don’t like him for that). Tim Tebow’s “mediocre” career was made “mediocre” in large part due to his Christian testimony. His playing time and opportunities were limited as teams saw him as a liability (yet T.O., Ray Lewis, and Michael Vick continued play). Fans derided him and wanted the teams to trade him. He chose his relationship with Christ over the success that “going along” might have brought.

p.s. Baseball was a diversion. Bo Jackson and Michael Jordan never made it out of the minors either.

And again, as has already been emphasized repeatedly, I don’t think Christians look up to him because they think of him as the GOAT NFL player or anything like that. I think they see a professional athlete who has stood strong in the face of temptation and ridicule. And he has indisputably been “successful” in the sense that he’s been a Heisman Trophy winner, professional football player, professional baseball player, and is currently a sports commentator on national TV networks. I think he’s done all right for himself.

[Jim]

Don Johnson wrote:

Tebow is a mediocre athlete (at the professional level) who is cashing in on his Christian celebrity status.

It is insulting that you demean our brother w your “a mediocre athlete” comment

I am sort of amazed that you are insulted by this. Why should you be insulted by someone stating the truth? No one halfway objective that can look at Tebow’s professional career and see anything but mediocrity.

I suppose you can buy into conspiracy theories about NFL coaches who intentionally turn away great talents that are Christians. In Tebow’s case, they would also be turning away someone who boosts attendance because Tebow has always done that. It makes Christians sound like cry babies to say that Tebow has been persecuted because of Christianity and it is almost certainly not true. NFL coaches want to win and they want to fill seats. If Tebow was any good, he would be playing somewhere, possibly a place like Atlanta where basically everyone is an evangelical.

The truth is the whole reason we are still talking about a washed up NFL quarterback and minor league baseball player is because he IS a Christian. It has helped his popularity, not hurt it. So, Don is essentially correct. Tebow is not notable in his career but is cashing in on his Christian fame. I am not blaming him for it and that does not mean he is not a great guy. But don’t get offended when someone calls a spade a spade.

If it’s fair to refer to a brother in Christ like Tebow as a “mediocre athlete” (among other pejoratives in this thread) is it alright to similarly refer to other Christians based on their failings (perceived or actual)?

If Don has a business owner in his church whose business teeters on the brink of bankruptcy, can Don call him out as a “mediocre businessman”?

If a lawyer in Don’s church loses a “slam dunk” case, can Don call her a “lousy lawyer”?

When a child in Don’s church acts up, should Don publicly call mom or dad a “rotten parent”?

Or is there instead a Biblical basis for expecting Don (or others) to treat brethren with greater decorum?

Regardless of the factual basis for the comment, is it really necessary?

And it’s amazing to find agreement with GregH. Red letter day!

yes, Tebow is mediocre. Sorry to break it to you. He isn’t the first Heisman winner who couldn’t make it in the NFL. There have been some who couldn’t even make it in the CFL. Some guys can be great in a more diluted talent pool like the college game (which I enjoy better than the NFL), but just can’t make it as pros.

Anyway, it is getting way off topic to argue this point. I’ll leave you to your delusions.