Some Advice for Younger Fundamentalists

I understand your concerns, but I’ve responded to similar objections to yours throughout this epic thread; so I won’t repeat my responses here. I’d appreciate some pushback on my actual points; none have been forthcoming.

If somebody can explain what some fundamentalist para-church organizations (with the exception of the bible colleges and seminaries) have been doing to perpetuate a historic fundamentalist ethos of militant offense and defense against theological revisionism, at an intellectual and popular level, I’m willing to listen.

If somebody can explain why I’m wrong to believe many fundamentalist para-church organizations have largely ceded this responsibility to conservative evangelicals, I’m willing to listen.

If, bearing all this in mind, somebody can thus explain why some of these fundamentalist para-church organization is therefore not a useless and irrelevant organization, I’m willing to listen.

Why does it need to be justified to you? You are intentionally abstaining from it. So why do you care? I am not being snarky with that. I seriously don’t get it. I am not clear on what your goal is. Are there a lot of young men flocking to the FBFI that desparately need to hear about it? I am under the impression that there aren’t a lot of younger men in it.

The FBFI is a chaplain sponsoring agency and they do address theological revision and an intellectual and popular level. Mike Harding gave a brief rundown of their upcoming annual meeting. You are wrong to believe they have ceded it to conservative evangelicals because they are still doing it. They simply don’t have the exposure and the “street cred” of the CEs for various reasons, not the least of which is the more militant defense against theological revisionism that CEs won’t do at times.

I actually did push on your actual post, on the idea that the FBFI has lost its purpose and on the misguided notion of how we determine what is important.

Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal 4:16). It’s the cold truth to tell a church it’s dying, and call for decisive and energetic action. It’s the same with some of these para-church organizations. Add to it, the men running these para-church organizations aren’t my intended audience. I’m aiming at younger men who already know the rot is there, and secretly (in their heart of hearts) know some of these organizations are dead men walking.

It’s not about telling the truth. My statement was about tactics, not truth. Again, I would ask for a more direct response to how your comments line up with the passages I mentioned. It is possible to be ungraciously truthful. It is hard to imagine that someone who laughs at these godly brothers is fulfilling the biblical commands. It is hard to see how being very critical and dismissive is in with these instructions.

It strikes me that you might be epitomizing the very thing you say you detest, that of being unwilling to listen (not to me necessarily, but to them). I have long been convinced that most “ex-fundamentalists” aren’t “ex” at all. They are simply switched fundamentals and carry the same attitude about a different topic, mostly the fundamentalism they left for their new fundamentalism. Tyler, again, I just appeal to you to reconsider your tactics. My comments are not about your position. I tend to agree with your analysis that the FBFI might be dying (though not because they have lost their purpose). My comments are about the tactics. Your post of Friday 3:38 and your blog post in general strikes me as being the wrong approach. If younger men are persuaded by that, then we need to do a better job of persuading our younger men to be discerning and loving.

Fair enough. You say the FBFI is valuable because they sponsor chaplains, and they have a magazine. Ok.

For the rest of ya’ll - don’t be a Company Man, don’t worship “the movement,” think for yourself, realize “the movement” is actually unimportant, and realize nobody cares about this but other pastors. That’s a good start to maintain sanity.

I took that earlier post, Larry, as being more pointed and aimed at me than I should have. I should have taken a deep breath and backed off a bit. I apologize for that.

The irony I pointed out has nothing to do with this comment of yours and Bryan’s here. I understand the self-perpetuating board of directors and understand the perceived need for it. I also find it ironic for a Baptist organization, but that has nothing to do with my point.

My point was the irony that some (most?) of the younger generation doesn’t see the need to change because everyone around else in their group says it’s okay. I am not a part of the FBFI and never have been. But I have seen enough to know that it’s not just the older ones who aren’t listening. In fact, they may be listening more than the younger ones.

I don’t know about that, but it does seem like at least in my circle of younger guys, this does happen. Not always immediately and not always prettily, but there is some push and shove and serious disagreement at times. I think on a lot of the bigger philosophical issues, we’re pretty much in agreement, but it’s not as unanimous at it may seem at times. Think about the YRR blowup from a couple years ago - some of the hardest hitting opponents of the YRR were the younger men. All of it, though, seems to take place where the boots are on the ground and the people are face to face and not in the cyber-realm of blogs / Twitter / Facebook / etc.

I’ve added one last piece of advice to my list. And, with that, I’m out.

[Larry]

The long and short of it is that if one requires a certain level of “decorum” to interact on a topic …

Yes, because Let your speech be always with grace doesn’t really mean “always.” It only means sometimes.

The servant of God ought to take a hint as to how He handled the Pharisees, and how David dealt with Shimei and the like.

And yet when this is done, people like Tyler, yourself, and others object. And once again, the irony seems to be completely missed.

I can’t help but think that 2 Tim 2:24-26 might help us here. Or perhaps 1 Tim 5:1. These verses are still in the Bible, and treating fellow believers like apostates doesn’t seem to be in accord with them.

Huh? Let’s contrast my treatment of the BFI with the accusations leveled from the other side.

Me: Define convergent, and I’d love to see an argument for your cultural positions that is not based on genetic fallacies.

Accusations of “reformers”; reckless, arrogant, young, stupid, naive, abrasive.

One appraises their logic, the other makes accusations and insinuations of motives without evidence.

Even regarding the original comments by Tyler, one might say he was being a bit reckless, but quite frankly in light of the “convergent” controversy and the “hand-clapping” article (Psalm 47), “silly” is one of the nicer ways to describe the matter. More directly, the things I’ve seen indicate that a huge amount of effort is spent on cultural issues where quite frankly at least a reasonable amount of Scripture directly contradicts their positions. And yes, that does indicate some degree of trouble for the first fundamental in their deliberations.

Fair enough. You say the FBFI is valuable because they sponsor chaplains, and they have a magazine. Ok.

For the rest of ya’ll - don’t be a Company Man, don’t worship “the movement,” think for yourself, realize “the movement” is actually unimportant, and realize nobody cares about this but other pastors. That’s a good start to maintain sanity.

Tyler, you said you wanted push back and I gave you a little. But I said nothing about a magazine. Might one problem be that actual listening/reading isn’t going on? It seems like these discussions far too often involve not actually exchanging ideas about issues but rather defending preconceived notions.

I do think chaplain sponsorship is important and I imagine that what they do is important to the people who participate in it. I am still not sure why that is a problem is a group you don’t like and disagree with is doing something you aren’t a part of anyway.

But let’s push ahead. You say that no one cares about this but other pastors. I know for a fact that’s not true because I know many non-pastors who do care, but let’s say that only pastors cared. Why would that mean it is unimportant? By what standard (biblical or otherwise) are non-pastors the sole arbiters of what is important?

Bert Perry, regarding your response to my last post, I agree with you that a wise man will listen and consider what is being communicated regardless of the way in which the message is delivered. Whether it is delivered with grace and even tough love or in an angry, even abusive manner, a wise person will still take a moment to think about what should be learned from the message. I think now I understand your point better.

That said, that does not excuse anyone from acting in an arrogant, prideful, never mind angry or abusive, manner. In your last post to my comment you acknowledge that the presentation matters, but only just.

I contend, there is something to be said about standing up for yourself an asking the other party not treat another person (including myself/yourself) in a rude manner, particularly if it is a pattern. That is Not code for “I won’t listen” Nor is it about “touch not the Lord’s annointed” (I despise that).

The pride we have spoken of about the leadership of these organizations, can be just as present with those asking for change. The unwillingness to listen is often equally distributed to both sides. Both are wrong. We are all called to grace with our speech and a willingness to listen. Yes, when that doesn’t happen from one side, again, a wise man will still listen and consider.

If the powers that be just won’t listen to well presented arguments, then I think I should just leave - which I have done and never regretted it. Few things in this life, i.e. these organizations we have been talking about, truly make or break our life.

If we think they do, then we aren’t thinking.

Mmartin, the first point is certainly that the wise leader listens even when he thinks the form of the message, or the mental state of the messenger, is wrong. The second point here is that very often, there is no rudeness intended and no state of mind that ought to be characterized as “arrogant” or the like.

That last bit is the part that irritates me the most, really. It’s one thing to attack the argument, yet another to attack the people making it. And what I see most from the BFI and its supporters is the latter, and then they wonder why young people are running for the exits.

You can keep shooting all the messengers, but it doesn’t change the news.

You would think someone would have figured that out by now.

Gentlemen, Thank you for your input. I will keep your comments in mind as I plan the next annual meeting at our church (FBC Troy). I invite all of you to attend our meeting beginning Monday evening, June 10, at 7 pm. Bob III will open the meeting that night followed by myself. We have a great list of men speaking on pertinent subjects. We finish with Mark Minnick on Wednesday night. I think all of you will enjoy and appreciate what you will hear. Whether the organization continues is not my primary concern. Right ideas, good theology, biblical fellowship, and genuine encouragement is the goal of the meeting.

I support other ministries reaching young pastors such as ARCH ministries out of Ohio. Tim Potter has an amazing network of young pastors centered on biblical separatism and disciple-making churches. Many of our own ministerial students belong to that organization. Their annual fellowship is scheduled in January at Calvary Baptist Church in Winter-Garden, Florida. Pastor TJ Klapperich, one of my “preacher-boys” and former staff members, will host that meeting. Tim has hundreds of young pastors in his network.

Generally, Frontline Mag. is a good periodical. Admittedly, the “Convergent” issue was not our finest hour. Nevertheless, it is a good and edifying magazine to which I have submitted numerous articles over the years. Criticism is helpful and necessary. I value what you men think and say. My advice is to take Larry’s advice. I could not have said it much better than him or more graciously.

I have been reading Sharper Iron for several years. I don’t post that much anymore because it is largely pointless. Serious question: If you hate fundamental Baptists so much, just move on. Do yourself a favor. Why cling to something you don’t agree with anymore. If you love Dever. Fine… go to his group. But stop trying to change the group you left to be like his. If you like the GARBC. Fine! But why try to change the FBFI. It makes absolutely no sense. If you attended BJU and now mock it. Fine. But move on.

If you want to sing Charismatic inspired music. FIne. But leave the hymn singers alone. If you want to drink wine. Fine. But stop trying to tell abstainers they are wrong. If you leave an abstaining church and find one of the multitudinous drinking churches, FINE. But stop complaining about the abstainers.

Do yourself a favor and let others do what they want IN THEIR CIRCLE. If you move to another circle… MOVE and stop looking back.

The whole “congruence” spat was over people who still call themselves fundamental Baptists who were looking longingly at Dever, or Piper, or MacArthur, thinking those guys are the cat’s meow. It was a call to get them to come back home. If you left a while ago, you LEFT. Stop listening to FBFI or whoever. Move on.

I think too many “young guys” and “old guys who have left fundamentalism” want to be cool like evangelicals. Want to wear jeans and cool t-shirts while they preach, and get a book contract, and say how much better cajons are than organs, or guitars than pianos. They don’t realize they stopped being fundamentalists a while ago and became evangelicals, but like Lot’s wife they keep looking back… Let me help you. Go. Own it. Move on.

I think too many “young guys” and “old guys who have left fundamentalism” want to be cool like evangelicals.

If I wanted to be ‘cool’, I’d have left the faith entirely a long, long time ago.

MIke, thanks for the note. Will you consider livestreaming some of the meeting or providing PDFs or anything for those of us who can’t make it to Troy? I really, really think you should.

Mark: what Jay says, and keep in mind that unless one dies or outright apostasizes to agnosticism or atheism, it’s hard to get away, especially if you’re in a rural area with not many “fundagelical” churches within an hour’s drive. Even if you’re not, you’ll find that, via CBD, homeschooling, people moving, military chaplaincy, and the like, that the ideas creep in, and you’re going to have to have a discussion.

Even if we could get to an evangelical church where the views are relatively homogeneous, you’re going to find the media and your neighbors asking about those other views. And in that light, doesn’t it make sense to have the discussion?

One clarification as well; I don’t really care whether someone does or doesn’t drink, likes hymns or choruses, and the like. What I care about is when views are presented as a Biblical mandate when the Scripture makes no much demand, or especially when those views are presented as a Biblical mandate when the Bible tells us exactly the opposite. As I’ve noted repeatedly, if we want to call ourselves “fundamentalists”, we’ve got to stop talking around Scripture when it’s convenient for our views and lifestyles.

And on being cool; get to know me, brother, and I’m one of the most “un-cool” people you’ll meet. It was, so to speak, a sad day for me when my beloved flannel shirts became stylish.