Approving Alcohol, Prohibiting Marijuana: An Inconsistent Position

[Larry Nelson]

Mike Harding wrote:

Many of us on the FBFI board appreciate overall the writings and ministry of John MacArthur, though we don’t totally agree with every position or practice he takes. John argues for an abstinence position in his Ephesians Commentary. He gives a fair treatment of the subject. John MacArthur does not personally drink alcoholic beverages and he advises pastors not to. If he does allow drinking in his college or seminary (and I do not know for certain whether he does or not), it is probably because of the nature of the equality of Elders rule in which he was not able to get unanimous agreement to his position.

From The Master’s Seminary 2017-2018 Catalog (page 62):

”Students are required to abstain from such practices as gambling, the use of beverages
for intoxication, the misuse of prescription drugs, the use of illegal drugs, and tobacco.”

https://www.tms.edu//nas/content/live/tmsbones/m/CATALOG-2017-2018-10.4.17.pdf

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-

From The Master’s University 2017 Student Handbook (page 25):

“Drugs and Alcohol
The Master’s University seeks to foster an alcohol- and drug-free environment in which students
work, live, learn, and grow. As a Christian University, we approach alcohol and drug use with a
combination of direct compassion, encouragement and instruction from a biblical perspective. In
addition to Appendix 4 The Master’s University Drug and Alcohol Abuse Policy and Prevention, the
following applies to students while they are “On Contract.”
• It is a violation of University policy to possess or consume: alcoholic beverages, drugs
(including medical marijuana and the misuse of prescription drugs) and tobacco products (including
e-cigarettes and vapes) at any time on or off campus while “on contract.”
• It is a violation of University policy for any student to supply: alcohol, drugs or tobacco
products to students “on contract.”
• It is a violation of University policy to host or in any way assist in promoting an off-campus
gathering that violates this policy.
• It is a violation to be in the company of students who are violating this University policy.”

http://www.masters.edu/media/870364/2017mastersuhandbook_829.pdf

Larry, you may think you have scored something against us with this post, but there are several points I’d like to address:

1. With respect to the policy at Masters, the College and the Seminary have two different policies. The College policy is a clear prohibition while students are “under contract”, (presumably, while enrolled) whereas the Seminary policy is less clear. The Seminary policy as quoted by you is

“Students are required to abstain from such practices as gambling, the use of beverages
for intoxication, the misuse of prescription drugs, the use of illegal drugs, and tobacco.”

What about the uses of beverages for purposes other than intoxication? This is NOT a clear prohibition of alcoholic beverages, rather it is a prohibition of a behaviour. Here is what Wally said in his article, citing exactly the same handbook you are referencing:

Yet The Master’s Seminary allows its students to consume alcohol as long as they do not get intoxicated. (The exact phrase in the student catalog is “use of beverages for intoxication”, a somewhat vague phrase.) However, TMS prohibits its students from using tobacco and marijuana, substances that are legal in California. When I (twice) asked TMS to explain the reasoning behind allowing wine but prohibiting tobacco and marijuana, they never answered beyond my first email asking general questions.

You appear to be triumphant in quoting the same words Wally did, but you are making a different conclusion about meaning than he is. Which is correct? I think Wally’s take is probable, it appears that TMS did not clarify Wally’s questions, perhaps someone else can get better results. Whether they are unwilling to clarify or too busy to answer (or ???) remains to be seen.

2. You are missing the point of the illustration as Wally already noted. TMS is used as an illustration of the main point of Wally’s article because they are conservative, held in esteem in many ways among fundamentalists (with reservations and caveats) and even their policy (at the seminary level) is AT BEST unclear.

3. You, along with almost everyone else on this thread, are missing the point. The article isn’t about alcohol yes or no, it is about pressing this question on those who are soft on alcohol: “When marijuana is fully legal, what will your policy be?”

This question is not a moot question as residents of many states know. In Canada, if our government has its way, it will be the law of the land next July 1. It is rather sickening that our government chose that day (Canada’s holiday, equivalent to the American Independence Day) as the day for making this the official launch day. It says something about the childishness and irresponsibility of our Prime Minister, but I digress.

So all this constant back and forth in the thread on the question, “Alcohol, yes or no?” is irrelevant to the question raised by the article. It makes me wonder if the correspondents have taken the time to read the article, and if they have, whether they have the reading comprehension skills required to discern the question it is raising.

[Larry]

I realize (at least I think) that people are having a bit of fun with the coffee thing, but I hope we don’t detract from the seriousness of this issue. Whatever might be the nature of coffee (and it can’t be habitforming; I know this because I have been drinking it for years, but I only have about 4 or 5 cups first thing in the morning so perhaps I am not a good representative), we can surely stipulate that there is no similarity between alcohol and coffee or marijuana and coffee. I like a good long drag from a freshly brewed pot (of coffee) as much as the next guy, but these are not the same kinds of things.

Emphasis mine. And one of the few sensible, astute statements of this thread, I might add. Alcoholic beverage is never like drinking any other beverage. Never! Even if one has permitted themselves to be addicted to that other beverage. And, yes, one can become addicted to almost anything (hence that moronic reality show a few years past which championed “strange addiction[s] “), but only a relative few things are intrinsically addictive, alcohol being one of them.

The same case could be made for marijuana—it is not the same as eating an eggplant even though both are vegetative.The major difference being that our understanding of the unique, mind-altering properties of marijuana and other specific plants is not singled out in scripture for specific restrictions as is alcohol.

One of the main concerns in my original article at P&D is Consistency. Some of the quotes and links offered in the latest comments only highlight the inconsistency of some people.

For example, Jim and others have posted quotes and links from GTY, TMS handbook, etc to highlight the strong and stated position of MacArthur and others associated with his ministry and TMS. On paper, sounds good. In practice, they send a different message. The statements use phrases such as “bondage”, “bad testimony”, “spiritual dangers”, etc. If that is what they believe, then why have someone like Carl Trueman teach a class at TMS? Trueman openly talks (almost brags) about his love of scotch and brandy. So TMS has a man teach a class to its students who are preparing for ministry, this man openly brags about his love of strong alcoholic beverages, and no one sees a problem or inconsistency with that?

Larry Nelson quoted from the 2017 Master’s University student handbook. That policy is not my concern since most of those students would not be legally alllowed to use alcoholic beverages anyway. (Attempts are being made to change California alcohol laws, but, currently, someone must be at least 21 years old to buy and drink alcohol.) My interest focused on the Seminary students, who would be legaly allowed. Notice the policy for Seminary students is less direct and stated more weakly. Additionally: In March 2017, Aaron Filbrun, Executive Assistant to the Administration, wrote this to me in response to questions I had about Carl Trueman: “As regards alcohol, the TMS position is in alignment with Scripture. While TMS does not prohibit the consumption of alcoholic beverages we do disallow the abuse of alcohol or any form of drunkenness.” If TMS does not “prohibit the consumption of alcoholic beverages”, then they must allow consumption of alcoholic beverages as long as someone doesn’t “abuse” or become drunk. Of course, a question would then be “What determines ‘abuse’?”. Another question would be “Does not prohibiting alcoholic beverages mean that they allow the consumption of scotch, brandy, etc by seminary students?” I have these questions and raise the issue of consistency because MacArthur has stated in many forums his very strong beliefs against using alcoholic beverages. Yet, the Seminary allows its students to use alcoholic beverages. That’s odd.

Bert keeps saying that marijuana isn’t addictive. Please see the links in my earlier post. Perhaps he has to keep saying that in order to defend his willingness to legalize marijuana significantly.

Again: I am not interested in rearguing the alcohol issue in this discussion. My concern is the connection between allowing alcohol consumption but prohibiting recreational marijuana (or tobacco). The two positions are inconsistent.

Much of this discussion has veered away from my main topic. I find it fascinating that no one who approves of drinking wine has offered any reasoning for opposing recreational marijuana, despite my requesting it. Also: No one who has expressed disagreement with me has expressed any concern about Trueman’s and Witherington’s acceptance of whiskey, scotch, and brandy nor has anyone who disagrees with me been willing to state specifically how OT warnings about “strong drink” apply today. That lack of willingness to specifically answer my questions is perhaps more revealing than anything else.

I appreciate that some who have posted in this discussion seem to be honestly trying to work out consistent, Biblical positions concerning alcohol, marijuana, and tobacco.

[WallyMorris]

Again: I am not interested in rearguing the alcohol issue in this discussion. My concern is the connection between allowing alcohol consumption but prohibiting recreational marijuana (or tobacco). The two positions are inconsistent.

Is the issue one of dosage & effects? Is there any level of usage of the drug in question (I won’t name it because I’m not sure my browser’s filter wouldn’t hiccup at the word) which does not have an intoxicating effect?

Like G.N. Barkman (in one of his posts above), I believe that prohibition as far as alcohol is concerned lacks biblical warrant. My understanding of and convictions drawn from Romans 14 are what have led me to that conclusion. I also believe that abstaining is likely the best choice for most Christians, but I won’t impugn those who choose to consume in moderation. (Once again, Romans 14……..)

The fundamentalist circle of my younger days may have claimed that intoxication from alcohol (let’s say from wine) starts with the very first sip, but I don’t see that in the Bible. The Bible’s descriptions of intoxication require the ingestion of some quantity of liquid, the measure of which depends upon the individual.

Is the same true of use of the drug in question? Do the symptoms of intoxication start immediately, or must one intake a certain amount?

Tobacco is in a different category entirely, from my perspective. Does it produce any intoxicant effects? I think it’s extremely unwise to use for multiple reasons, but I’m not convinced that a Christian is sinning if they smoke.

Larry: If you haven’t already, look at the links I referenced in an earlier post concerning the question of marijuana addiction.

For those who have questions about wine and water, see Norman Geisler’s article in Bibliotheca Sacra, Jan-March 1982, pp46-56. Robert Stein’s Christianity Today article (6/20/75) gives more background information.

Once Again, The Question: Those who allow Christians to drink wine, will you do the same for Christians who want to smoke marijuana? Would you consider a person for pastor who regularly smokes marijuana? Would you want your daughter or son to marry someone who regularly smokes marijuana? I am still waiting for someone who has been critical of my position to answer my questions.

From my perspective the deep inhalation needed to get the best effect from marijuana is more harmful to the human body than cigarette smoke. Thus I’m against smoking anything. It is also my understanding that the supposed benefits of marijuana are available in forms other than smoking.

A lot of the question, Wally, centers around whether it’s simply habit-forming (like Sharper Iron), or whether it’s actually physically addictive. I’ve been watching the controversy for years, and the allegation that it’s actually physically addictive seems new.

But even if it’s completely correct, it’s worth noting that nobody’s pointing to anything like delirium tremens from alcohol withdrawal or the often lethal consequences of withdrawing from heroin—that’s why they use “step down” drugs for treatment at times like methadone. What you’re doing is equating the “shakes” from THC or nicotine withdrawal with DTs, more or less.

You’ve also got the question of whether low level use of either alcohol or marijuana tends to produce dependence. For example, alcoholism follows hard liquor closely, which suggests that “how much can I drink before I need to go to the bathroom” is an issue. To get the symptoms Proverbs 23 describes on beer, a guy my size (210 lbs) probably would need to have 8-10 cans of beer. That’s a lot of work to get it down, and a lot of trips to the bathroom. For whiskey, it would be a little over a cup. Since alcoholism really follows binge drinking, guess where you get your alcoholics? The same would go for marijuana use—like Scripture says, it’s really about drunkenness/intoxication, and not the substance itself.

So to make a long story short, nope, your links really don’t change my mind, because of the nature of whatever “addiction” is being spoken of not including lethal consequences.

[TylerR]

This is a presuppositional issue. Thus, we reject your argument. The issue will always return to what the Bible says about alcohol, Wally.

Nice try, Tyler, but you are really dodging the question.

Washington state has legalized marijuana, I believe. I think the federal law is against it. Would you support accepting into membership of your church someone who smokes marijuana regularly? Why or why not?

Tyler: I would encourage you to thoroughly look at the question of the differences between wine used in the ancient world and wine sold today. Geisler’s BibSac article is a good starting point. IF today’s wine is not the same as ancient wine, but indeed stronger, then the justification for drinking wine today fails. Additionally, we have 100s of beverage choices today that the ancient world did not have. Therefore, I always wonder WHY someone insists on drinking today’s wine when many other, safer choices are available and can be just as pleasant. This is an issue where our culture has influenced Christians more than they realize.

What about the “strong drink” warnings in the OT and Carl Trueman’s (and others) use of scotch and brandy? Do those beverages fall under “strong drink”? If not, then what beverages would? If so, then I again point out the inconsistency in TMS’s position and practice. Let’s stipulate your argument for wine for the sake of discussion. Would “sanction to drink to moderation” apply to brandy, scotch, or whiskey? Would those beverages fall under “Christian liberty” and allowed as long as used in “moderation”?

Here is part of the point I have been making: Christians who allow for wine are often silent concerning beverages such as scotch or brandy, and also very tolerant of people like Trueman (like TMS has been). They will not state that his drinking scotch and brandy is wrong. Many of the same people will not state that recreational marijuana is wrong.

You have stated that “Scripture doesn’t give us sanction to smoke marijuana, shoot heroin, or smoke crack.” I appreciate that and agree with that. But what, specifically, is your basis and reasoning for that statement? To say that the Bible “doesn’t give us sanction” comes from where? To argue that the Bible doesn’t mention marijuana as the basis for opposition is an argument from silence and is actually a strength of the pro-marijuana argument. So a Christian who opposes recreational marijuana must have some reason for that belief. What is it? One of my points is that those reasons will usually focus on health or addiction concerns, reasons which can also be used in the wine/alcohol issue.

Bert: I never thought I would able to change your mind.

[WallyMorris]

So TMS has a man teach a class to its students who are preparing for ministry, this man openly brags about his love of strong alcoholic beverages, and no one sees a problem or inconsistency with that?

No! He is free to have his own personal beliefs about alcohol.

[WallyMorris]

I have these questions and raise the issue of consistency because MacArthur has stated in many forums his very strong beliefs against using alcoholic beverages. Yet, the Seminary allows its students to use alcoholic beverages. That’s odd.

I see no inconsistency between “his very strong [personal] beliefs against using alcoholic beverages” and the seminary allowing students with different [personal] beliefs to use alcoholic beverages. Every man should be convinced in his own mind. I would think it odd if the school required every student to abide by MacArthur’s personal beliefs.

[WallyMorris]

Again: I am not interested in rearguing the alcohol issue in this discussion. My concern is the connection between allowing alcohol consumption but prohibiting recreational marijuana (or tobacco). The two positions are inconsistent.

You see inconsistency, while others (myself included) do not. But if you’re not going to recommend to those whom you have influence over, that they attend MacArthur’s schools, why are you bothered by what their handbook prohibits or not?

[WallyMorris]

I find it fascinating that no one who approves of drinking wine has offered any reasoning for opposing recreational marijuana, despite my requesting it.

Maybe because we don’t think that they’re in the same category.

[WallyMorris]

Also: No one who has expressed disagreement with me has expressed any concern about Trueman’s and Witherington’s acceptance of whiskey, scotch, and brandy nor has anyone who disagrees with me been willing to state specifically how OT warnings about “strong drink” apply today. That lack of willingness to specifically answer my questions is perhaps more revealing than anything else.

Why should we be concerned about the personal beliefs of another Christian. or more importantly, why should we expect another brother to abide by our personal beliefs? The OT warnings about “strong drink” relate to the abuse of such and do apply at all times and in all places.

[WallyMorris]

I appreciate that some who have posted in this discussion seem to be honestly trying to work out consistent, Biblical positions concerning alcohol, marijuana, and tobacco.

I believe we’re all working out consistent Biblical positions on these issues, but you shouldn’t expect that anyone else will agree that your personal view is the standard we all must adopt.

JohnBrian’s comments reflect the “live and let live” thinking of many Christians. Of course Trueman’s beliefs are his personal beliefs. And those personal beliefs and practice include drinking scotch and brandy, reflecting the foolishness and danger Proverbs warns about, yet some Christians aren’t concerned about that. Incredible. I wonder how many have even bothered to read Geisler’s and Stein’s articles and take their arguments seriously. Also, he is silent about his views on marijuana.

Alas, far be it for some Christians to let the truth get in the way of “sacred cows”.

I maintain that approving/tolerating today’s wine is inconsistent with prohibiting recreational marijuana. I maintain that the Biblical teaching on strong drink applies to scotch, brandy, and whiskey, and Christians who are unwilling to criticize those who drink those beverages have been significantly influenced by our culture and therefore do not have a basis for opposing any drugs like marijuana, cocaine, or meth if those drugs become legal.

Throwing mud at The Masters College and Seminary and John MacArthur just doesn’t work! You at FBFI & Proclaim and Defend come across as absolute fools to me. Seriously - you demean yourselves and come across as very petty and small.