Bill Nye’s Embarrassing Face-off with Tucker Carlson on Climate Change

I don’t know where Greg H is coming from. He totally misreads my comments and makes assumptions about me, never having met me. My point is very simple: The tactics used by many in today’s globalist culture are very similar to the tactics used by communists to “educate” and control people and what people think. As far as “armchair scientists”: I am not a scientist and never claimed to be. In college (secular, Univ of Georgia), I did take geology, botany, and anthropology. I am not commenting as such on the science. I am commenting on the tactics.Seems to me Greg H is twisting my comments into a Fundamentalists V The World scenario. That’s not the case at all. Greh H’s comments are way out of line.

You wrote:

With their bias against anything new, a fundamentalist armed with a few articles he reads on the internet is a dangerous thing

That was certainly a quotable moment! But, to be sure, everybody can be guilty of this issue. I’m sure some folks commenting here have a whole lot more informed opinion they could offer on this issue, if they chose to.

Regardless of where a Christian stands on a particular issue, I believe Christians ought to be committed to truth. That means believers have a responsibility to fairly and accurately represent the other side, and an obligation to do a reasonable amount of credible and substantive research before venturing uninformed speculation.

I decided the time has come for me to do just that with, for example, the OEC vs. YEC conundrum. Hence, I am reading a 500-pg. geology text written by OEC Christian geologists …

I get what you’re saying about tactics. The very video subject of this thread shows the bullying tactics of “consensus” and “settled science.” I think Carlson did an outstanding job. I wonder if he studied under Van Til … !? :)

My understanding is that we have a whole lot more Christians in the science depts than in the Humanities.
Remember that postmodernism and modern intersectionality didn’t start in the science depts; they started in the English depts (well, for postmodernism, I believe it was “architecture,” more specifically; but it got to English quickly enough).

[Bert Perry]

GregH wrote:

I wonder if anyone else notices what is going on here. It is typical for sure, especially when you stick fundamentalists in a postmodern environment.

We have a guy claiming conspiracy theory and hinting that scientists are communists. We have a theologian who boldly and dogmatically calls global warming “crock” even while there are oh thousands of scientists that study global warming for a living that disagree with him.

With their bias against anything new, a fundamentalist armed with a few articles they read on the internet is a dangerous thing.

As for me, I am going to side with the experts, not believing them unequivocally, but at least giving them the benefit of the doubt and certainly more credence than armchair scientists.

Again, that’s the “appeal to authority” fallacy, and the most interesting thing about it is that the subject of this thread is not among the recognized authorities, but is rather a spokesman, so something of an irrelevant point to boot. Note also that you’re indulging appeal to popularity (“thousands of scientists…that disagree with him”) and indulging a couple of ad hominem attacks like “armchair scientists”, “conspiracy theory”, and “bias against anything new.”

With a record like that, Greg, I’d caution you against making the accusation that others are anti-intellectual, and I’d encourage you to take a good look at the data as well. I and others have provided some very testable references to the history of recent climatology which, if true, cast doubt on whether it’s being practiced as science or politics. Check us out on this—use your google-fu.

I am not surprised you took offense Bert because you are one of the ones I would be referring to. You consider yourself an expert in basically everything. You are quick to tell Mark Smith he is wrong on science, quick to correct any theologian on theology, quick to correct any musician on music. You can talk about fallacies all you want. Anyone can hide behind pointing out perceived fallacies to cover up for the fact that they just flat out are not a subject matter expert and should probably be a bit more humble and less dogmatic.

To be blunt, I would rather be guilty of the “appeal to authority” fallacy than the “listen to any self-proclaimed expert who has read some blogs” fallacy. Not that the first is really a fallacy. Next time you need a surgery, go read a blog or get your aunt to do it. Me? I will go to a trained surgeon.

You talk about data. Are you really REALLY under the impression that you, an untrained scientist, have a grasp of all the data and can understand it better than climate scientists? So you Bert, are ready to toss the conclusions of people who actually interpret this data for a living because you think you, an armchair scientist, know more than all of them?

Honestly, it is just absurd. I would love for you Bert Perry to just say one time “I am not sure about that.”

[TylerR]

You wrote:

With their bias against anything new, a fundamentalist armed with a few articles he reads on the internet is a dangerous thing

That was certainly a quotable moment! But, to be sure, everybody can be guilty of this issue. I’m sure some folks commenting here have a whole lot more informed opinion they could offer on this issue, if they chose to.

Regardless of where a Christian stands on a particular issue, I believe Christians ought to be committed to truth. That means believers have a responsibility to fairly and accurately represent the other side, and an obligation to do a reasonable amount of credible and substantive research before venturing uninformed speculation.

I decided the time has come for me to do just that with, for example, the OEC vs. YEC conundrum. Hence, I am reading a 500-pg. geology text written by OEC Christian geologists …

I applaud you for reading the OEC book even though you may disagree going in. I could not agree more: Christians should be committed to the truth and that does mean some uncomfortable research. The OEC position is of interest to me. There are roughly 40 fairly credible scientific dating methods for example that point to an earth older than 6000 years. Does that mean OEC is right? No, but it does mean that a Christian committed to truth has to wrestle with that data. Hopefully, they do it in a credible and honest way but their record is not so good.

GregH:

The OEC advocates who wrote this geology book look at a lot of creationist literature from ICR (e.g. Genesis Flood, and other materials - both older and more modern) and accuse YEC folks of making straw-man arguments and framing matters very selectively and simplistically as “red meat” for their YEC base. That worries me. I hunted around for a while for a YEC geology text that I can be fairly certain takes an honest, credible look at the evidence and goes into the level of detail this OEC text does. Snelling’s work seems to be the best substantive thing out there. We;ll see.

To wrench this back on topic, I’ll say this - a Christian needs to be discerning with the materials he uses to evaluate an issue. If you’re imbibing hyper-partisan propaganda, then you aren’t learning anything - you’re being indoctrinated. This is why, for example, a good Seminary forces you to read perspectives from intelligent, committed and articulate people who disagree with you! On climate change, this FoxNews video is funny, but it isn’t substantive. AiG’s blog is often informative, but it isn’t substantive. ICR’s Acts & Facts is a step closer to substantive, but I worry about them, sometimes. Be willing to branch out and read credible folks you really disagree with.

Well, one could look here, or here, if you want to find places where I admit uncertainty, Greg. And if I looked further on this forum, I’d certainly find more. Like here, or here, or here, or here, or here. And wow—I notice you were in on those discussions. Glad you noticed!

It is also interesting to me, Greg, that when it’s an authority that matters to you, then we should appeal to that authority, but when it’s an authority that you’re not particularly hot on—say the fallacies of informal logic—then the same principle doesn’t hold. Awfully convenient for you.

But that said, appeal to authority is still a basic logical fallacy, and any argument that uses it is fallacious and useless. The conclusion might be correct by the broken clock phenomenon, but that’s about as much hope as one can have with such an argument. At least the guy in his underwear in the basement quoting random stuff off the Internet has a chance of a valid argument.

For my part, I’m going to stick with actual data—facts like that IPCC climatologists are appealing to consensus, refusing to share their data, are manipulating data and throwing out good data for bad, and a whole lot more—to conclude that the climatological fraternity has a disturbing degree of politics involved in their operation, and therefore I ought to pay attention to what motives government-appointed-and-funded scientists might have in their work.

My comment about global warming being a crock is based on a little study and reflection; probably as much as your opinion. If you want to believe the majority of “experts” then do so, but be consistent. Follow the ‘experts’ on the age of the earth and the non-reality of the global flood. Follow them on neo-Darwinism too. But don’t think that a short statement in a combox entitles you to brand me or others as some species of obscurantists. As C.S. Lewis once said, one does not arrive at truth by counting noses.

Fact is, the majority of ‘experts’ know which side their bread is buttered. Still, there are eminent naysayers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

You might cast an eye over this paper too: http://www.bibleframework.com/uploads/articles/2016-Sin-Deception-and-the-Corruption-of-Science.pdf

Here on SI, we have guys with at least their MDIV coming at fundamental theology from Reformed/Calvinistic, Arminian, “convergent”, historic fundamental, FBFI, and I think even what many would call a “hyper-fundamental” perspective. So when discussing a topic where these groups are known to disagree—many of them theologically important—who is our authority?

It gets even messier, of course, when we bring in our “outside theologians” like Thom Rainer, Johnny Mac, and a host of others. One can quickly see that appeal to authority—any genetic fallacy really—really degenerates any discussion to the level of a high school student council election.

No insult intended to high school student councils, of course.

[Bert Perry]

Well, one could look here, or here, if you want to find places where I admit uncertainty, Greg. And if I looked further on this forum, I’d certainly find more. Like here, or here, or here, or here, or here. And wow—I notice you were in on those discussions. Glad you noticed!

It is also interesting to me, Greg, that when it’s an authority that matters to you, then we should appeal to that authority, but when it’s an authority that you’re not particularly hot on—say the fallacies of informal logic—then the same principle doesn’t hold. Awfully convenient for you.

But that said, appeal to authority is still a basic logical fallacy, and any argument that uses it is fallacious and useless. The conclusion might be correct by the broken clock phenomenon, but that’s about as much hope as one can have with such an argument. At least the guy in his underwear in the basement quoting random stuff off the Internet has a chance of a valid argument.

For my part, I’m going to stick with actual data—facts like that IPCC climatologists are appealing to consensus, refusing to share their data, are manipulating data and throwing out good data for bad, and a whole lot more—to conclude that the climatological fraternity has a disturbing degree of politics involved in their operation, and therefore I ought to pay attention to what motives government-appointed-and-funded scientists might have in their work.

There are some who do not even know what they do not know…

You are just a bit too influenced by postmoderism and essentially think all ideas are pretty much equal. You think that reading a few articles about global warming puts you on a plane where you can tell thousands of climate scientists that they are wrong when they have forgotten more about the topic than you will ever know. And when all else fails, you bring up logical fallacies like a crooked NBA official might call fouls to keep the underdog in the game.

To an expert, armchair experts are just yapping little dogs that are annoying and making a lot of useless noise. If a climate scientist actually was reading this, I can only imagine her amusement.

Again, it is not the fact that people don’t believe in global warming that bothers me. It is just this crazy dogmatism when even top scholars in the field admit they don’t know for sure. It is this idea that everyone is an expert in everything after they read a few blogs. It is the ongoing devaluation of the expert.

You used a generic feminine pronoun! You … you … liberal! :)

[TylerR]

You used a generic feminine pronoun! You … you … liberal!

Yes, I have started doing that to make up for my first 40 years where I defaulted to male. Hopefully, I will catch up before I die because I believe in equality :)

Greg,I think I’ll apply your method of thinking to you. If I, with two degrees in engineering (often called “applied science”, which it is), am unqualified to discuss matters of science coherently, how much more is a music major unqualified? For that matter, the music major really doesn’t even get the logical basis for action that an engineer does.

Certainly he would not know the basis on how to describe postmodernism, and we would even infer that when he makes accusations like “not admitting uncertainty”, he would even be unqualified to do so. Let him alone with his keyboard and scales, and he’ll be fine, but let’s not intimidate him with real issues.

Of course, by doing so, I would find myself on the bad side of Scripture, which addresses the fallacy of appeal to authority brilliantly by pointing out that “unlearned men” like the Disciples had rhetoric that ran circles around that of the “learned” Pharisees, Sadducees, and Greek philosophers. Scripture also deals with silly personal attacks by pointing out that when, say, a person falsely accuses a man of being “postmodern” or “not admitting uncertainty”, that this constitutes slander and evil speaking.

I’ll close with a reference to your “appeal to authority” regarding a surgeon. In choosing a surgeon, his certification is not what you look at. You look at his record, the evidence he knows his trade, or else you risk being on the table with Kermit Gosnell looking at you.

[Bert Perry]

Greg,I think I’ll apply your method of thinking to you. If I, with two degrees in engineering (often called “applied science”, which it is), am unqualified to discuss matters of science coherently, how much more is a music major unqualified? For that matter, the music major really doesn’t even get the logical basis for action that an engineer does.

Certainly he would not know the basis on how to describe postmodernism, and we would even infer that when he makes accusations like “not admitting uncertainty”, he would even be unqualified to do so. Let him alone with his keyboard and scales, and he’ll be fine, but let’s not intimidate him with real issues.

Of course, by doing so, I would find myself on the bad side of Scripture, which addresses the fallacy of appeal to authority brilliantly by pointing out that “unlearned men” like the Disciples had rhetoric that ran circles around that of the “learned” Pharisees, Sadducees, and Greek philosophers. Scripture also deals with silly personal attacks by pointing out that when, say, a person falsely accuses a man of being “postmodern” or “not admitting uncertainty”, that this constitutes slander and evil speaking.

I’ll close with a reference to your “appeal to authority” regarding a surgeon. In choosing a surgeon, his certification is not what you look at. You look at his record, the evidence he knows his trade, or else you risk being on the table with Kermit Gosnell looking at you.

Strawman alert: I did not say you were unqualified to discuss science. I said that you are not qualified to be dogmatic on climate science.

In regards to your continual argumentation about experts and authority, I would just say that you are just being consistent about who you are. You really do believe that armed with a few facts, your opinions are just as valuable as someone who is immersed in the subject. Basically in your world, because you were an engineer, you are on par with experts in the field of science. Same goes for any number of other areas such as business, music, theology, etc where you have a thimble full of experience. Sorry, but I just disagree with that.

You are indeed postmodern in this way though I will stipulate that such thinking existed before post modernism too. And no, saying so is not slander.