On "Conservative" Worship

Darrell, I still don’t understand for the life of my how you can ignore commands of Paul in the epistles simply because we don’t have an explicit description of congregational singing in Acts. Don’t we normally value presciption over description for sake of clarity?

And you are also ignoring 1 Cor. 14:26, where Paul clearly stated that when the Corinthians came together they each brought a “psalm.” Of course the problem in the Corinthians church was a lack of order in worship, so Paul is rebuking them for the fact that everyone is speaking/singing out with their own psalm, teaching, tongue, revelation, and interpretation, rather than doing things decently and in order, but he is not rebuking them for the fact that psalms were sung (otherwise we would have to say that teaching should not be allowed in NT churches because that is mentioned in this verse, too).

BTW, “psalm” (psalmos) “as a rule refers to a song accompanied by a stringed instrument” (EDNT), so the uses of this word in 1 Cor. 14:26; Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16 might prescribe, and at the very least allow, the use of instruments in worship.

Interestingly as a side note, often an argument is made against drums as inappropriate for worship because of their evil association due to worldly use. Please note the entry in TDNT on the use of the words psallo (to play a stringed instrument) and psalmos in Greek literature:

Psallo perhaps meant originally “to touch” (etymologically akin to psylaphao), then “to pluck” the string, to cause it to spring, of the string of a bow, Eur. Ba., 784; Dio C., 49, 27, 4, “to play a stringed instrument,” Aristoph. Eq., 522; Menand. Epit., 301, “to pluck” strings with the fingers, Plat. Lys., 209 b, with kitharidzo and kapeleuo as not a manly activity, Hdt., I, 155, 4, cf. the antithesis: to bear weapons — psallo, to play the flute, to be a brothel-keeper and merchant etc., Plut. Apophth. Xerxes, 2 (II, 173 c). When Alexander skilfully plays a stringed instrument at a feast his father reproaches him: “Are you not ashamed to play (psallein) so well?” Plut. Pericl., 1, 6 (I, 152 f.); In teaching : didazei…kitharizein e psallein, Ditt. Syll.3, II, 578, 17 f. ( 2 nd cent. B.C.). To practice one’s tekne and organon is needed, one cannot play the flute without a flute nor psallein without a lyre, Luc. De Parasito, 17.

Psalmos is “plucking” the string of a bow, Eur. Ion., 173; Herc. Fur., 1064, or “playing” a stringed instrument, Pind. Fr., 125, distinguished from
kitharismos in a list of victors (in a contest for young people), Ditt. Syll.3, III, 959, 10. Elisha was seized by the Spirit of God while engaged in psalmos, playing a stringed instrument, Jos. Ant., 9, 35, cf. also 7, 80; ode and psalmos are mentioned in the Bacchic procession, Plut. Alex., 67, 5 (I, 702 c), auloi, psalmoi, methai among pirates, Pomp., 24, 5 (I, 631 b); dances, tinklings, psalmoi, and licentious nights are mentioned in the description of a Parthian Sybaris, Crass., 32, 5 (I, 564 d), with fomigyz (thus denoting the instrument?) De amicorum multitudine, 8 (II, 96 e).

And yet Paul was not swayed from commanding Christians to speak, teach, and admonish one another in psalmoi.

Greg,

I haven’t ignored the commands of Paul. I was the first in this discussion to bring up the verses in Colossians and Ephesians. My point is there is insufficient information from the NT that suggests music in the life of the early church was what many churches have made it today. And even in Paul’s instructions there certainly was no role defined for musical instruments. I have dealt with 1 Corinthians 14:26 in my study, and it really provides little to the discussion. Again, my call is for the church to go back to serving one another, and bearing one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Greg, I am not arguing from silence. In Acts we are told what the early church did when they assembled together. We are told there was the teaching of the Apostles’ doctrine, fellowship, breaking of bread, and prayer. Music was not in the list. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn’t, but regardless, it clearly wasn’t important enough to the writer to include in the list. Your appeal to the TDNT article is a stretch, to get it to apply to this issue. Nowhere did I suggest that all churches are struggling in the area of music.

And for the third time, I am not minimizing the parallel verse in Colossians and Ephesians. I am saying that today’s church has made too much of music as a part of assembled worship as compared to what the NT emphasizes throughout the entire book of Acts as well as the letters to the churches. And again, the thrust of Paul’s instruction in Colossians and Ephesians is that of human voices singing truth to one another—again, no mention of instruments (this does not mean I am arguing against instruments, merely pointing out that the NT does not define a role for them in the life of the assembled church).

Something is wrong when your pastor who you love sits you down and tells you that you have to change your view of music and change your conscience or you need to leave the church. Maybe you haven’t been through that, but I have. And having had that sense of abandonment, I went to the NT and examined every single time music is mentioned and I was stunned at how little there is in the NT, and how the entire focus of the NT as it relates to church life is more along the lines of teaching sound doctrine, prayer, brotherly-love, bearing burdens, service, sacrifice, and so on. But I was told to leave because of something that gets scant coverage throughout the NT. My point is, that although I was a casualty of the “worship-war” my contention is that this should not have been a war at all. Grace, love, humility, service, and sacrifice and deferring to one another should reign in a healthy church.

In a small (pop. 300) there is one church building where a dozen senior citizens meet each Sunday with their missionary pastor for traditional type church services. Meanwhile at the local elementary school, which has been closed for lack of students, 100+ people from the area meet for fellowship and a worship service led by a man with minimal Bible education. They know they’re not a church but would like to be if God would bring someone to help them. Their music is all over the place. There are no trained musicians; you may hear guitars, an accordion, a keyboard, a banjo, a harmonica, or a saxophone, depending on who’s brave enough to play. On any given Sunday you’ll hear traditional hymns, Gospel songs, Southern Gospel, or the the latest CCM song someone heard on the radio. They are happy with the efforts of those people who try to contribute to the music.

They have had men who expressed interest in leading the church, and nearly everyone of them has said that the first thing they would do is “fix” the music.

You wrote:

They have had men who expressed interest in leading the church, and nearly everyone of them has said that the first thing they would do is “fix” the music.

That makes me very sad to hear.

Greg,

Again, the Corinthians reference is hardly a command, and for the fourth time now, I have not discounted the parallel verse in Eph and Col. I do not know why you keep saying that I am.

[Darrell Post]

…the entire focus of the NT as it relates to church life is more along the lines of teaching sound doctrine, prayer, brotherly-love, bearing burdens, service, sacrifice, and so on.

Darrell, as I said earlier, you are missing the entire point of Paul’s words on music. It is all of those things you say that the NT focuses on. I’ll detail it out below from Scripture:

Teaching of sound doctrine - “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another….” (Col. 3:16). BTW, the word “richly” means in abundance.

Prayer - “…singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God” (Col. 3:16). “…singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph. 5:19-20).

Brotherly-love, bearing burdens, service, sacrifice - both Colossians and Ephesians say that we sing to each other which is where the teaching and admonishing comes from. I Corinthians 14:12-15 speaks to edifying the church in part by singing with understanding. We seek to edify and help each other at least in part by singing.

So though you may think the NT excludes singing and puts an emphasis on these other things, I contend that the NT says that singing does exactly the things you pointed out. Furthermore, you keep saying how there is little emphasis on singing. Both the OT and NT speak quite a bit about it. The NT even emphasizes how the united church in heaven from all nations will be singing. Below is an outline pointing out a number of the passages…perhaps you would like to see Scripture emphasize it more, but it certainly does speak to singing in numerous places.

-Singing is commanded of us

1. Psa 33:3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.
2. Psa 81:1 To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of Asaph. Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.
3. Eph 5:18-19 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; (19) Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

-Singing was prominent in worship in the OT

1. David brought the ark of the Lord into the city and they worshipped - 1Ch 16:9 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him, talk ye of all his wondrous works.
2. When coming out of Babylon, the children of Israel were numbered and had 128 singers with them. Ezr 2:41 The singers: the children of Asaph, an hundred twenty and eight.
3. David had a choir of 288 voices (I Chronicles 25:7)
4. Solomon’s songs numbered 1,005 (I Kings 4:32)

-Singing in the NT

1. Jesus and His disciples sang together: Mat 26:30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
2. The early church sang together

Act 16:25-26 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, (26) and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened.

1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

-There is singing in heaven

1. Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
2. Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
3. Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

They have had men who expressed interest in leading the church, and nearly everyone of them has said that the first thing they would do is “fix” the music.

This doesn’t make me sad. It makes me angry. Incredibly so.

I know that we don’t have all the details, but if this is the church’s typical practice, then why on earth does it need to be ‘fixed’? Is there a schism in the church because of it? Is it a stumbling block for visitors or attendees? Is God not exalted in their music?

Maybe the problem here isn’t with the church but with a bunch of selfish ‘ministers’ that are far more concerned with making sure they - feel - worship actually happens than whether or not the congregation is actually worshipping our Great God in grace and truth. Those ‘shepherds’ have no heart for their people, and sad as it is to say, the fledgling church is far better off without them.

Doesn’t the Bible say something somewhere about people who create endless disputes and controversies?

Responding to Jay;

The group really is thankful for any kind of music they can have. If you can carry a tune and are willing, you can be one of the 4 or 5 singers who stand in front of the group to lead singing. If anyone wants to sing a “special” they may. If someone with musical ability visits, they may be encouraged to sing a number of songs. If a “real”pianist shows up, one can expect a post worship singspiration. To be honest, a church music critic would cringe at the quality of their usual music, but the folks really don’t care. They’re happy with whatever they have.

[Ron Bean]

They know they’re not a church but would like to be if God would bring someone to help them.

“I think music should be an important of the NT church. If I understand your comments, you do not. Isn’t that correct?”

That’s not what I think. I think there is a measure of importance to it, as Paul indicated in Ephesians and Colossians that it is a tool useful for assembled believers with which they can use their voices in song to communicate truth to one another. But I am saying it is not as important as other things like preaching/teaching doctrine, prayer, breaking of bread and fellowship. I am saying it is not so important that one group of believers would force others out of the church over it, in violation of all sorts of NT Scripture. If you read my comments earlier in the thread, I said music in the life of the church belongs in the middle of the back seat instead of the drivers seat. I never said music didn’t belong in the car.