The Regulative Principle - A Baptist Doctrine

Don, it doesn’t seem like you’re terribly interested in engaging further, but on the off chance that you might be persuaded, I’d be interested in hearing you out.

I am just dismissing the regulative principle. It is a construct of men, not of God.

Don, how do you know or decide what should be a part of a worship service? On what basis would you rule something to be sinful or inappropriate in worship? On what basis would you say that something someone else does in worship sinful or inappropriate?

Don, thanks for the clarification. I didn’t need it, but others did.

Would that you would toss off all constructs of man and adopt God’s own principles for your church.

Be well and stay healthy. I’ve had some heart/BP scares myself in the last few.

I would like to hear your answer to Larry’s question. David Brumbelow’s as well. David doesn’t want the congregation in charge of the service content. But does he want God in charge of it? Do you?

Where did John’s baptism come from? From heaven or from men?”

Where do the things you include in your worship service come from, heaven or men?

And just to summarize:

If we get our religion from the one true God, do we really think we get to make parts of it up? He says, “Do the following: Preach, Pray, Read My Word, Offer Me your Gifts, Sing My Praise, Baptize in My Name, Observe My Supper.”

Who among us can add to this? Who among us can decide, you know what, we’re supposed to do A, B, C, D, E, F, and G, but I just think it would be really great if we also did X, Y, and Z?

The arrogance.

Back in my youth, before I heard of R or N Worship, I was blessed to have new believers in my church who had questions about everything. “If it’s the Lord’s Supper, who do we have it in the morning?” “Why do we stand to sing some hymns and sit to sing others?” “Why do we skip verses in hymns?” It was fun and challenged my thinking!

It seems to me that the essence of this debate is just that - “Why do we do this?” “Why don’t we do that?”

What is our answer? Is it, “Because the Bible says so.”

Everyone agrees (well, maybe not everyone…but most) that we should base our worship on biblical principles. But I agree that from my limited understand and exposure to the RPW, it seems that they hold themselves up as the only ones who TRULY base EVERYTHING they do in worship on the Bible. But then when you start asking questions, there are all sorts of equivocations and qualifications. “Why do you have announcements? Use a pipe organ? Preach from a printed copy of God’s Word? Not have communion daily like the early church in Acts 2?” “Ah, but those are circumstances, not elements.”

I just haven’t found it helpful. But again, that may be due to my ignorance of it. I’m still waiting for explanations on boards like these to convince me to look into it further, though. :)

Greg, do you see a difference between singing along with a pipe organ and having a puppet show? Singing is an unquestionable element. Is singing with an organ vs. acappella two separate elements? I don’t dismiss your question because some RPW adherents would say yes. But my point is I think you’d make a difference between an uncommanded activity and a commanded activity with questionable implementation.

The implementation questions must still be answered by each congregation and group of elders before their Lord. These are the questions one must work through and come to a decision on when one decides they want Jesus to rule in every aspect of their church

What if the puppet show led the congregation in worship as a way to encourage kids to sing? Based on the RPW, I don’t see how you could forbid the puppets leading in singing and not forbid the choir. The Bible commands singing, and both are leading the congregation in singing. If you say the puppet show is an example of a commanded activity with a questionable implementation, some would argue the same about the choir (or praise team, or…)!

Am I arguing for puppets leading the congregation in worship? No. The point is that I think that there are other (and in some cases better) principles that can guide a congregation to determine what is appropriate and acceptable without using the RPW. And again, that proponents of the RPW seem to argue that it is the ONLY way to determine what is appropriate (but then are there are myriads of debates about its particulars).

The organ example is one reason I’d historically believed that the RP is generally interpreted as negative. Again, I am very happy if in practice I am wrong! But if the mass of RP arguments are over organs and such, I can see why someone like Don would say “no, thanks, there are general categories prescribed by Scripture, and I’m not willing to infringe on Christian liberty just because someone hasn’t read Tertullian and learned that there were organs back in those days that the early church simply couldn’t afford.”

Interesting point about puppets leading in singing. Hadn’t thought of that. And it does come closer to circumstantial than elemental (I was arguing for the organ accompaniment being a questionable implementation vs. the normal version of a puppet show [in which the story line teaches some biblical principle] being uncommanded).

Yes, there are wisdom considerations when determining how to implement something. No question there.

It is interesting that the wikipedia article on normative worship uses announcements as an example of what the difference is between the two views. I recall debating this on Chris Anderson’s blog a long time ago. One of my favorite Biblical metaphors for the church is the metaphor of “body” - as a body, the church lives out the Christian life. There is nothing at all wrong and everything right with including announcements pertaining to the life of the body as part of the worship service. The only rule we have in the Bible for church worship is ‘decently and in order’ - beyond that we have no instructions and NO forms. We don’t actually have much of an example anywhere in the Bible for church services. The things surely to be included are psalms and teaching, 1 Cor 14.26, unless you think we should also have revelations, tongues, and interpretations (also mentioned in that passage but since passed away, as I see it). But we have no prohibitions of any aspects of worship that are decent and in order and edifying to the body of Christ.

Are you suggesting that the RPW provides the ONLY grid or framework by which a person could make a biblical determination about that question?