Should a Pastor Look at Giving Records?
“I can only imagine the kind of business meeting we would have when I suggested that we consider allowing me to review all of our giving records.” SBCVoices
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Early in my ministry, I was confronted with this question. Our church Treasurer told me I was not allowed to see the giving records. (I had not asked to see them.) I told him that he could not impose that restriction. (He took it upon himself. There was no church policy relating to this.) In forty-two years, I have never asked to view these records. However, to be told that as pastor, I may not see them, even though others may, seems to imply a problem with the pastor’s integrity or leadership.
I prefer not to know how much anyone gives. I am also glad to know that if a serious reason for doing so arose, I would have access to these records. That works for me.
As for the tithing vs. grace giving issue, I teach a combination of both. Tithing, not as a matter of law, but as a God-given standard to measure our grace giving. It is so easy to deceive ourselves into thinking we are giving generously when we are not. Outsiders are amazed at the giving of our church. An Elder at a near-by denominational church with five times our membership, told me that our church out-gave his significantly.
G. N. Barkman
41 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny.f 43 And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box.44 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.” (ESV)
If Jesus stood and watched how much people gave, why is it wrong for you to do that?
Do you think the point of that account was to show a pastor that it is not wrong to count the money received, or was it to show that you can’t judge faithfulness and generosity from appearances?
Dave Barnhart
[Mark_Smith]If Jesus stood and watched how much people gave, why is it wrong for you to do that?
Because Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and has full and final authority in every aspect of every person’s life?
:)
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Maybe some people are paranoid about money…
Do you think it is right to be concerned that your pastor checked your giving records? I don’t.
If the pastor uses that info to change his behavior towards you, he is revealing a character flaw and/or sin on his part.
If you aren’t giving that much or none at all, and that is why you are concerned, then maybe there is a problem on your end.
I still wonder why so many here think it is a good idea to ignore whether or not people are giving or not.
[Mark_Smith]Maybe some people are paranoid about money…
Do you think it is right to be concerned that your pastor checked your giving records? I don’t.
If the pastor uses that info to change his behavior towards you, he is revealing a character flaw and/or sin on his part.
If you aren’t giving that much or none at all, and that is why you are concerned, then maybe there is a problem on your end.
I still wonder why so many here think it is a good idea to ignore whether or not people are giving or not.
I can’t speak for others, but like you, I don’t care if my pastor has seen my giving records. However, since the church/pastor also doesn’t know what I make, neither can come to a 100% valid conclusion from that information as to whether I’m generous or a miser, so then what good does it do to know more than whether I’m giving or just “tipping” God? The point I made above is more about a pastor who would insist on having regular access to that information as having to do with his ability to shepherd, where I pointed out that there is much information that the pastor and church don’t have about my private/home life. Is the ability to minister to me or judge me a fit leader then dependent on all that, as some have claimed about knowing exact giving amounts?
If a church doesn’t have a policy about this, I think Pastor Barkman’s approach is pretty wise — he has access if it is *really* necessary, but he hasn’t had to use it. That would certainly help to protect against what you mentioned in your 3rd sentence.
Finally, as many posts have pointed out, there is a difference between *whether* a person is giving or not, and exactly how much. If a pastor (or any other person in the church, for that matter) “needs” to have the latter easily available to him at all times, I think we would be right to question why.
Dave Barnhart
[G. N. Barkman]Early in my ministry, I was confronted with this question. Our church Treasurer told me I was not allowed to see the giving records. (I had not asked to see them.) I told him that he could not impose that restriction. (He took it upon himself. There was no church policy relating to this.) In forty-two years, I have never asked to view these records. However, to be told that as pastor, I may not see them, even though others may, seems to imply a problem with the pastor’s integrity or leadership.
I prefer not to know how much anyone gives. I am also glad to know that if a serious reason for doing so arose, I would have access to these records. That works for me.
As for the tithing vs. grace giving issue, I teach a combination of both. Tithing, not as a matter of law, but as a God-given standard to measure our grace giving. It is so easy to deceive ourselves into thinking we are giving generously when we are not. Outsiders are amazed at the giving of our church. An Elder at a near-by denominational church with five times our membership, told me that our church out-gave his significantly.
…. except nowhere in scripture is the tithe given as a standard for giving for the church age believer …..
I think we agreed that Jesus and the apostles saw who gave and how much they gave. Does that mean pastors should do the same? Maybe. I think it may be appropriate in certain circumstances.
If I give cash, the usher and those around me may see what I put in. I’m fine with that. I currently live in Togo where people go up to the front to give into a box, which means everyone sees who gives but not how much. And I’m fine with that.
But if I put my name on a check and expect a tax deductible receipt, then I’m making that information available to overseers at the church. Be they treasurer, deacon, financial secretary, pastor, or all of the above. I don’t mind that.
Those things are a discussion of matters of conscience and reasonable practice. I’d like to address those things brought up that pastor should do.
If I am displaying an ungenerous spirit, should my pastor (or any knowledgeable Christian, for that matter) confront me about it and ask me specific questions about my giving? Yes, absolutely he should. And I’d go so far as to say that if he sees my sinful attitude and does not confront me or hold me accountable to scripture, then he is derelict in his duties.
If an elder and deacon is supposed to not be greedy and to manage his household well, should we ask them specific questions about their generosity and giving? Yes, absolutely. And if we do not, then we are neglecting our duties.
“Would it be reasonable for married couples to submit reports on their time with each other so that the pastor will know if they are violating the command to not “defraud” one another?”
No, but if I have an obviously strained relationship with my wife, should my pastor confront me about it and ask me specific questions about following scriptural commands in marriage? Yes, absolutely he should.
“Should we need to submit a form each year with our actual income so that it can be compared with what comes in from us? Or our work review so the pastor will know if we are being a good testimony at work?”
No, but I have a testimony of being uncharitable and/or lazy, should my pastor confront me about it and ask me specific questions about following the related scriptural commands? Yes, absolutely.
“Should we have bodycams to report all our interactions at home and with others to show that we are living a good Christian life? Should all traffic tickets be reported to the church, since it was a violation of the law?”
No, but if I have a testimony of living a sinful life… I think you get the picture.
A pastor and other Christian brothers and sisters should confront the sin in my life that is visible to them. If they don’t know how much I give, then they won’t act on that information. But they certainly have the warrant to ask me and to hold me accountable to scripture. However, if I sign my name under the amount I give and hand it to someone at the church, then I am freely giving them that information.
If a church secretary, deacon, usher, or pastor sees evidence that I am living an ungenerous life should they do nothing and let me continue in my sin? Or should they lovingly and tactfully confront me with the information they have, even if that information is incomplete?
The conversation about others looking at what was given reminds me of when I was pastoring with 4 children under 4 years of age. SInce my wife was “BUSY” with the little ones, I did not want her to have to wrestle for a check to put in the offering plate while trying to hold 2 kids and keep the other 2 sitting still, so I would just drop the check in the plate before church started. One of the teenage girls in the church told my sister in law that she was concerned that she did not see the pastor tithing. Some would argue that my example should have been seen, but if my right hand should not even see my left hand, then I think what I was doing was just fine. Further if she was so concerned, then she could have asked the treasurer who was also a deacon.
Discussion