3 Bad Reasons to Leave Your Church

In a scene an older woman confronts the wife at lunch…the wife doesn’t respond well and walks out.

[Mark_Smith]

OK…so what Bible verse do you use to determine if someone is good enough to play in your church? Specifics please.

[Greg Long]

First of all, I am very sorry to hear about your personal situation. I can’t imagine how difficult that must have been. We have several men in our church who have been through a similar situation, and one of my best friends from high school went through that as well. I know these words seem trite, but I pray that you will continue to find healing as you continue to follow God along the difficult path He has chosen for you.

I also want to say that as much as I do endorse Fireproof the movie and the Fireproof Your Marriage Bible study based on the movie, it is not necessarily the marriage study I would recommend the most highly. There are a couple of minor things I would change in the Bible study if I had the choice, and I would probably recommend Sacred Marriage before it.

HSAT, I really think you are allowing your situation to color your view of the movie, and I think you are being very uncharitable to the movie producers. You said that you don’t have any reason to believe that the filmmakers thought the wife’s behavior was sinful. Obviously because they were the ones who wrote and produced the movie in which the wife’s actions took place, you must think that they think it is okay to commit adultery and file for divorce if a husband shirks his responsibilities. I think this is wrong for the following reasons:

• As you know, Fireproof was produced by Sherwood Pictures, which is a ministry of Sherwood Baptist Church. Fireproof was directed by Alex Kendrick and produced by Alex and his brother Stephen Kendrick, along with . Both Alex and Stephen are Associate Pastors at Sherwood Baptist Church. Now, as a pastor I would be the first to tell you that pastors can be wrong in their beliefs, but what you are saying is that two pastors produced a film that endorses adultery and divorce? Really? For me to accept this accusation, I would have to find explicit evidence in the film that this is the case, and there is no such evidence.
• In fact, keep in mind that the wife does NOT commit adultery and does NOT file for divorce. The sense is that she realized the error of her ways and pulled back before she made a terrible mistake.
• In the Fireproof Your Marriage Bible study, one of the six lessons is entirely focused on divorce. It is entitled “Love for a Lifetime.” In this lesson, participants examine Bible passages such as Matthew 19:5-6 and Malachi 2:14-16. These are among the strongest passages in the entire Bible condemning divorce. Questions in the lesson include:
  • “What does Mal. 2:14-16 say about how God views divorce?”
  • “Verse 16 says that God hates divorce. What do you think some of the reasons might be?”
  • And directly to your point about the actions of the wife in the movie, one question says, “Jesus says that man is not to separate what God has joined together. In the movie Fireproof, some of Catherine’s friends blame Caleb for the problems in their marriage. Catherine also becomes very close to a male doctor at the hospital where she works. List some of the ways in which people can ‘separate’ (i.e. physically, emotionally, spiritually) a married couple.” The clear aim of this question is to say that Catherine’s friends were wrong to imply that it was OK for Catherine to do what she was doing because Caleb was doing what he was doing. Her friends in the movie were presented as tempters. I really don’t know how much more clear this could have been.
  • So in order for me to believe you, I would have to believe that the movie producers wrote a Bible study (it was written by Michael Catt and Stephen Kendrick) that DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS what they portrayed in the movie.

Again, the perspective of the movie, which I thought was very clear, is that the husband is the spiritual leader in the home. When he was completely failing in that role, his wife was tempted to sin as well. When he trusted Christ and began to love his wife unconditionally, she ultimately responded to that love. Do you think that any of this is unbiblical?

Now, of course things don’t always work out that way. Of course she could have continued to go her separate way, committed adultery with the doctor, and filed for divorce. That would have been completely wrong and sinful, and I’m going to assume (because I have no reason to think otherwise) that the producers would have viewed those actions as sinful. But the fact is, that is not the story the movie portrayed. I don’t think the producers intended to communicate that if a husband loves his wife she will ALWAYS love him back, or that if a husband loves his wife she will NEVER file for divorce, or that if a wife commits adultery or files for divorce it MUST be the husband’s fault. That is reading things into the movie that just aren’t there.

Sorry for the delayed response; my one week per month with my special needs daughter concluded yesterday, so I was focused on activities for her the last several days.

I do appreciate your prayers, Greg, and your words do not seem trite at all. Thank you. To the extent it’s possible to have some objectivity about a personal situation, I think the healing is fairly well along for my feelings of personal betrayal and grief; seemingly the last personal stronghold is too-frequent anger at her (in my mind) when memories of good times and special events pop up, only to be ruined (or so it feels) by the intrusion of the knowledge of what was to come later. I’ve had less success with the anger and grief for what I imagine is the same effect on my 4 kids’ memories, along with the effect on their views of marriage, of me, of the church, of God, of women (for my 3 sons), of men (for my daughter), as well as the never-ceasing reminders and inconveniences (sometimes hardships) for the rest of their lives as every celebration that should be a family event includes tension (she will not speak to me, even now 3.5 years after the divorce was final), a step-father, the consequences of her relocation to a remote place 400 miles away from the family’s long-time location, and so forth.

As to Fireproof, I acknowledge that my personal situation no doubt plays some role in my sensitivity, and I do not blame anyone for keeping that in mind as they assess my questions and criticisms. But, and I do not think you are doing this or you would not have responded as extensively as you have, I would fault someone for dismissing my comments out of hand because I’m an unwilling divorce. The possibility of bias is the reason I cited Dalrock’s website. Yes, there are many men who comment there who have been burned like I was. Importantly, though, many have not, including most significantly Dalrock himself, who is happily married.

As to the filmmakers’ beliefs/assumptions, I don’t think I said they would actually countenance adultery or divorce by wives in that situation, nor do I think that. But I do believe that they would countenance, at least by silence and lack of reproof, a Christian wife using the threat of divorce to “motivate” her husband to “do better.” I’m glad the Bible study apparently takes some issue with her flirtation with the doctor and her friends’ delight at that. But apparently it does not take issue with her sexual refusal and her general disrespect for and rebellion against her husband, exemplified by her frequent railing at him — behavior that is extremely common among Christian wives who are very spiritual at church. This behavior is the result of their own depravity, our culture’s pervasive feminism (including in the evangelical/fundamentalist church, though perhaps more subtly than in the secular culture), and, yes, their husbands’ depravity (which shows up often as abdication of leadership, spiritual and otherwise). More often than not, though, in my observation (and yes this was true of me), the husband actually is leading the family but he’s doing it wrong as far as his wife is concerned, at which point she jumps in both to him and in front of the kids to push for more or different leadership. This doesn’t have to go on very long before most husbands, seeking peace, will start to withdraw and let her do things the way she wants. They don’t realize that it will become a death spiral until it’s too late (she’s entrenched as the leader and/or she divorces him for failing to lead) or until some major intervention is required (counseling, etc.). On this point, I’d encourage you and everyone else here to check out Peaceful Wife’s blog (www.peacefulwife.com), written by a very conservative Christian wife who realized 14 years into her marriage that her husband was a much better man and leader than she had given him credit for, but that he had withdrawn because of her criticism and usurpation. Very valuable stuff there, for both wives and husbands AND for pastors/counselors who may be inclined to credit Christian wives’ complaints about their husbands’ lack of leadership when there’s actually a lot more going on.

I take no issue with anyone’s teaching that, regardless of who hurt who and how, any Christian is responsible for his or her own sin and is likewise responsible to love their spouse and to fulfill their God-given role in the marriage regardless of their spouse’s behavior. I agree that is biblical. I was responsible to love my wife and to lead her and our family regardless of her attitudes, words, and actions, and there were many times I failed to do that very well. In hindsight, I would have handled many things differently: I would have been much more assertive about the justifications for the actions I took or didn’t take, the standards I set, the church(es) we would attend, etc.; simultaneously, I would have been much more direct and explicit about the fact that I loved her and our kids and that, regardless of her distrust and criticism, I was acting in what I genuinely believed was their best interest. I’m doubtful that doing so would have made much if any difference, but I wish I were more able to say that I had done everything I could. (There is a difference, though, and I’m sure you agree, between contributing to problems in a marriage on the one hand and making the deliberate decision to blow up the family via divorce on the other hand. I’ve admitted to many people that I was responsible for at least 50% of the major problems in my marriage. The end of that story, though, is that she was 100% responsible for the divorce, which made it impossible to continue working on those problems or to ever resolve them (particularly when she proceeded to rush into a second marriage — to a man who was already twice-divorced himself (!).)

Here’s one of the kickers for me, though. You shared above that “We have several men in our church who have been through a similar situation, and one of my best friends from high school went through that as well.” You don’t mention whether you’ve seen an equal or greater number of husbands frivolously divorcing their wives, but statistically it’s heavily weighted toward wife-initiated divorce, as I mentioned in my first comment. That certainly doesn’t mean that the Kendrick brothers are obligated to address wife-initiated divorce before they call men to account to be the leaders they ought to be, any more than the black community can’t express its concerns about (alleged) police violence against blacks before they deal with the much more prevalent problem of black on black violence. So one movie aimed at husbands, done fairly (which I don’t think Fireproof was), can’t be complained about. But if the first movie gave too much of a pass to the wife’s bad behavior, as I think it does, and then their next movie targeted men again (as fathers this time), it certainly seems to be a pattern. The synopsis of their forthcoming movie, War Room, shows that they’re clearly going after men again: “Tony and Elizabeth Jordan have it all—great jobs, a beautiful daughter, and their dream house. But appearances can be deceiving. Tony and Elizabeth Jordan’s world is actually crumbling under the strain of a failing marriage. While Tony basks in his professional success and flirts with temptation, Elizabeth resigns herself to increasing bitterness. But their lives take an unexpected turn when Elizabeth meets her newest client, Miss Clara, and is challenged to establish a “war room” and a battle plan of prayer for her family. As Elizabeth tries to fight for her family, Tony’s hidden struggles come to light. Tony must decide if he will make amends to his family and prove Miss Clara’s wisdom that victories don’t come by accident.” I’m sorry, but it pains me to know how many Christian wives will take delight (sanctified delight, of course) in yet more male bashing. And I ask the question, why can’t War Room be about a husband who is bitter about his wife’s rebellion and who then “tries to fight for [his] family” through prayer? And the (informed) skeptic in me responds that people will give lip service to the notion that of course wives have their failings too, but the movies (and sermons, and books, and Bible studies, and songs, etc.) will still almost all be “man up” lectures — because in fact the church is rife with the functional premise that women aren’t as bad as men. And most men will either never notice or be only vaguely discomfited by the imbalance because it is usually in their nature to take criticism to heart, to admit to themselves that they aren’t what they should be, and to try to do better. Women’s reactions to clear and strong teaching on respect and submission won’t get anywhere near the same acquiescence, but will be met with significant pushback, to the extent that seemingly every sermon on respect and submission starts with an apology and a series of qualifications.

Back to the question I’ve asked twice now: does anyone really think that these filmmakers (or any other Christian filmmakers) will any time soon tackle rebellious Christian wives? wife-initiated divorce? No. I submit that the absence of any such movie to date and the absence of any expectation that there will be such a movie is problematic, not mere coincidence or happenstance. Instead, it’s because generally Christian women are insulated from serious criticism, while Christian men are fair game. (One example: Mother’s Day sermons overwhelmingly praise and even pedastalize women; Father’s Day sermons overwhelmingly are calls to “man up.”) I’m certainly not arguing that men shouldn’t be called out; I’m arguing that women should also be called out, and that arguably the need to call out the women may be even greater. It’s certainly no less great. And I’m arguing that it won’t happen in our entertainment or (most of the time) in our churches because we in fact have blinders on (or cultural gags in our mouths) regarding Christian women’s failings.

it’s a bit of a rant, but I do really hope that it will resonate with at least some and that some will check out Dalrock and Peaceful Wife rather than simply dismissing the comment. Thanks.

[Greg Long]

Again, this is just a completely uncharitable view of the movie.

Most Christian leaders I read argue that there is a crisis among men in our country, and among men in the church. I think we see evidence of this in our own churches. Now, I believe our church is better than most in this area, and we have a great number of men who are actively engaged in worship, community, and ministry, but overall in the evangelical church there is a higher percentage of women than men who attend and are involved. In the small group that I lead with 13 couples in it, it is more of a challenge to get the men to engage in Bible study, discussion, and prayer than it is for the women to do so.

So the movie producers, seeing this problem, decided to make a movie challenging men to step up and be the spiritual leaders God has called them to be. That does NOT mean that women shouldn’t be spiritual, that women don’t need to be called to grow spiritually, that women don’t have spiritual problems, that problems in the home are all the man’s fault, etc.

Let me put it this way: I have two children. If one of them is struggling with a particular sin problem right now, and I address that particular sin problem with that child, does that mean I am saying the other child is not a sinner? Or doesn’t struggle with sin? Or even doesn’t struggle with that particular sin at all? No.

The movie had a singular focus—to encourage men to courageously lead their families, as God calls us to do in His Word. It was not intended to address women.

I agree with you that most Christian leaders see a crisis among men. I’m just pushing back on that perception — partly on the explicit aspect that men are failing and partly on the implicit aspect that women are not (or aren’t failing as much or their failings don’t have as much of an impact on the church or the family).

As to the first aspect, has anyone asked whether there are other reasons (or at least reasons in addition to lack of leadership) for men’s relative non-participation in church? Off the top of my head, what about the fact that almost all men are the sole or primary providers for their family, and therefore have less time to invest in church activities? Certainly we would expect that women who work outside the home full-time will participate less in church activities than stay at home moms. Do we extend the same grace to men? More difficult to determine, but I suspect still significant, how much of men’s lack of participation is a reaction rather than simple unwillingness? Have they at some point in the past attempted to participate more but were met with criticism from their own wife or from other women about the way they performed? (Confession: Possible personal bias. I taught an adult Sunday School class for four years and loved it, and got good (even glowing) reviews from class members. Two couples later said they stayed in our church so they could be in my SS class. But after the fourth year my wife informed me she would no longer attend our class if I continued to teach because, as far as she was concerned, I was disqualified from teaching (no, not porn). I believe she was wrong, and told her so, but she was immovable. I could have continued to teach and attempted to come up with an explanation for my wife’s absence, but I didn’t. In retrospect, that should have been a bridge too far; unable to persuade her differently, I should have taken her to the church leadership and sought their input (both on that issue and on the other problems we were having) and, if they agreed that I was not disqualified, their assistance in correcting my wife’s presumption.) Or are the non-participating men living in a home and a marriage made miserable by their wives’ disrespect, sexual refusal, etc. (Fireproof!)so that they either have no energy for extra duties or, just as likely, are ashamed of their situation and believe that to take on any visible role at church is to be a hypocrite? In short, has anyone given any thought to the role wives may be playing in their husbands’ non-participation? In your Bible study, is there any consideration given to the fact that many men are simply less verbal? You and I would no doubt be exceptions, as men who chose the professions we have (pastor and attorney) in part because we are verbal, but it’s not just a stereotype that women talk more than men. I had a Christian partner in one law firm who would have been one of your quiet men in a Bible study, especially a couples study. He attended the SS class I taught and I pushed him one time to speak up more (or at all), because I knew he was very bright and had a lot of Bible knowledge and wisdom. But he declined because that simply wasn’t him. (You’ll have figured out that he was not a courtroom attorney; he did estate planning.) As for praying, how many of those men have wives who have directly or indirectly criticized their spoken prayers? And so forth. None of this excuses abdication of responsibility, of course, but doesn’t it make a difference to consider whether there are understandable reasons for the apparent abdication, as opposed to the immediate assumption/conclusion that men just won’t lead like they’re supposed to and therefore need a kick in the pants, while their wives are saints because they participate more?

As to the second aspect (women’s failings), I’d probably just be repeating myself, so I’ll spare you that.

I do appreciate the civil interaction, Greg.

Thanks. I’ll just say that I don’t believe any aspect of either spouse’s behavior was condoned or endorsed in the first part of Fireproof. I thought it was clearly presented that both were reacting sinfully to one another’s behavior. But of course the movie did emphasize the husband’s responsibility to lovingly lead, which I think is a biblical perspective.

I’m sure you’ll understand that I’ll just have to agree to disagree with you about the two movies. But I do appreciate your perspective and your comments that are helpful and stimulating for me as a pastor.

Well we’ve asked for Bible verses that tell us how to quantify whether a given musician can be allowed to participate in a service, described “Slow Fade” as a biblical plea for marital faithfulness (!), and debated the finer points of the Kendrick Bros. cine-theological ethics.

I’d say that more than covers things.