8 essential components for discerning God’s will

Hi all-
JohnBrian is absolutely right. God will be glorified in His just condemnation of those who rejected Him…can’t believe I neglected to mention that.
As for Greg’s comments:

No, it makes God culpable for evil itself. (Me)
No, it doesn’t (Greg)

OK, so why doesn’t it? I have been pestering Calvinists with that question for years and have yet to receive an answer. Of any kind.

Are you saying the entrance of sin into the world was outside of God’s sovereign plan/decree/will?

No, I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying that man chooses to sin of his own will, but God uses that in His sovereign plan. Take a look at these passages from what I said earlier (although I am adding in two sets of verses in this list because I didn’t include them before).

Matthew 26:14-16
Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and said, “What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?” And they paid him thirty pieces of silver. And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him.

Luke 22:4-6
Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve. He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. So he consented and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of a crowd.

John 13:21-27
After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table at Jesus’ side, so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.”

Luke 22:52-53
​Then Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders, who had come out against him, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs? When I was with you day after day in the temple, you did not lay hands on me. But this is your hour, AND [!] the power of darkness.”
Matthew 27:1-5
When morning came, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death. And they bound him and led him away and delivered him over to Pilate the governor. Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself.
Acts 2:22-24
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

By the way, could you give me a definition of “determinism,” please?

I’m a little surprised that you are asking for a definition, since you’re an adjunct professor (and I don’t mean that as a slam - I’m just really surprised), but here it is, as taken from Oxford Dictionaries:

determinism Syllabification: de·ter·min·ism
Pronunciation: /dəˈtərməˌnizəm

Definition of determinism in English: noun

Philosophy The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

So again I ask, sin is outside of God’s sovereign plan/decree/will?
No, of course not. God knows what sins will occur and what sins could occur and somehow works our free choices with His plan. What God cannot do is decree that evil will occur and then set the pieces in place so that is must occur.
Is that helpful to you, Greg?

I give you the writings of Lorraine Boettner:

And if the crucifixion of Christ, or His offering up Himself as a sacrifice for sin, was in the eternal plan, then plainly the fall of Adam and all other sins which made that sacrifice necessary were in the plan (of God -Jay), no matter how undesirable a part of that plan they may have been.

History in all its details, even the most minute, is but the unfolding of the eternal purposes of God. His decrees are not successively formed as the emergency arises, but are all parts of one all-comprehending plan, and we should never think of Him suddenly evolving a plan or doing something which He had not thought of before…

…Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God. We are told that Christ was “foreknown indeed (as a sacrifice for sin) before the foundation of the world,” I Peter 1:20. Paul speaks of “the eternal purpose” which was purposed in Jesus Christ our Lord, Eph. 3:1. The writer of Hebrews refers to “the blood of an eternal covenant,” 13:20. And since the plan of redemption is thus traced back into eternity, the plan to permit man to fall into the sin from which he was thus to be redeemed must also extend back into eternity; otherwise there would have been no occasion for redemption. In fact the plan for the whole course of the world’s events, including the fall, redemption, and all other events, was before God in its completeness before He ever brought the creation into existence; and He deliberately ordered it that this series of events, and not some other series, should become actual.

And unless the fall was in the plan of God, what becomes of our redemption through Christ? Was that only a makeshift arrangement which God resorted to in order to offset the rebellion of man? To ask such a question is to answer it. Throughout the Scriptures redemption is represented as the free, gracious purpose of God from eternity. In the very hour of man’s first sin, God sovereignly intervened with a gratuitous promise of deliverance. While the glory of God is displayed in the whole realm of creation, it was to be especially displayed in the work of redemption. The fall of man, therefore, was only one part and a necessary part in the plan; and even Watson, though a decided Arminian, says, “The redemption of man by Christ was certainly not an afterthought brought in upon man’s apostasy; it was a provision, and when man fell he found justice hand in hand with mercy.”

I agree with Watson (whoever that is) 1000%!

[Jay]

By the way, could you give me a definition of “determinism,” please?

I’m a little surprised that you are asking for a definition, since you’re an adjunct professor (and I don’t mean that as a slam - I’m just really surprised), but here it is, as taken from Oxford Dictionaries:

determinism Syllabification: de·ter·min·ism
Pronunciation: /dəˈtərməˌnizəm

Definition of determinism in English: noun

Philosophy The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

Do you believe that determinism is the same thing as fatalism? If not, how would you distinguish them? I’m really trying to understand your position.

[Greg Long]

Jay, I know what I think determinism is. I was just wondering how you defined it.

Do you believe that determinism is the same thing as fatalism? If not, how would you distinguish them? I’m really trying to understand your position.

They’re really close to each other, but I think the idea in fatalism is that there is an implied resignation to the “plan”. In determinism, all things must occur but there is no resignation - the actor can still be working out the plan and even look forward to fulfilling the plan. I haven’t really considered that and will have to do so.

[Jay]

By the way, could you give me a definition of “determinism,” please?

I’m a little surprised that you are asking for a definition, since you’re an adjunct professor (and I don’t mean that as a slam - I’m just really surprised), but here it is, as taken from Oxford Dictionaries:

determinism Syllabification: de·ter·min·ism
Pronunciation: /dəˈtərməˌnizəm

Definition of determinism in English: noun

Philosophy The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

So again I ask, sin is outside of God’s sovereign plan/decree/will?

No, of course not. God knows what sins will occur and what sins could occur and somehow works our free choices with His plan. What God cannot do is decree that evil will occur and then set the pieces in place so that is must occur.

Is that helpful to you, Greg?

I don’t know why you listed those verses about the sinful actions of men in regard to the death of Jesus, because Calvinists don’t deny that at all. We believe that humans make real choices and that they are morally responsible for those choices. You may not see how we can believe that, you may not believe that our view should entail that, but we do believe it because we believe that is what the Bible teaches.

What you have denied, on the other hand, is that God “set the pieces in place so that [the death of Christ] must occur” , which the verse you quoted above, Acts 2:22, explicitly affirms, as well as Acts 4:27-28 which couldn’t be more clear. (See also the actions of Pharaoh, the actions of Joseph’s brothers, etc., etc.)

[Greg Long]

To answer your question, Jay—no, a belief that God determined all things that come to pass is not necessarily determinism according to your Oxford definition, because Calvinists believe the Bible says individual human beings DO make real decisions and CAN be held morally responsible for their actions.

So how do so many Calvinists end up at positions like Lorraine Boettner’s? Calvin says similar things, although I don’t have his quotes now.

And furthermore, this Arminian has been arguing from the beginning of this thread - and even long before that in other threads - that “individual human beings DO make real decisions and CAN be held morally responsible for their actions”. So I’m not sure why you are implicitly charging me with heresy.

Where you and I disagree is, I think, summarized in this one sentence: “If God knows it must happen (Adam’s sin and fall), then it must occur”. That’s why I continue to insist that this flavor of Calvinism is actually theological determinism.

I don’t know why you listed those verses about the sinful actions of men in regard to the death of Jesus, because Calvinists don’t deny that at all. We believe that humans make real choices and that they are morally responsible for those choices. You may not see how we can believe that, you may not believe that our view should entail that, but we do believe it because we believe that is what the Bible teaches.

• I listed those verses because in at least one verse, Judas is the free moral agent who deliberately chooses to betray Christ for 30 pieces of silver (Matthew 26:14-16, 27:1-5).
  
• Later on, at the Last Supper, Satan takes possession of him and performs the diabolical transaction itself (Luke 22:4-6, John 13:21-27).
  
• During the Gethsemane arrest, Jesus ascribes the intent of the “chief priests and officers of the temple and elders” to them four (Four!) times and then ultimately to the “power of Darkness” (Luke 22:52-53).
  
• Afterwards, Judas (not Satan) is the one who is remorseful and tried to give the money back, but at that point, it is too late for the return of the money and too late for the state of Judas’ soul, as per Matthew 26:20-25.

If my interpretation of these passages is flawed, Greg, then I would seriously and sincerely appreciate your input. I have not seen a Calvinist deal with that in a systematic and coherent fashion.

Similar to Judas, Pharoah also hardens his heart early on in Exodus (chapters 7-9), but it is not until much later in the book that it explicitly states that God hardened his heart (chapter 9, in keeping with Exodus 4:21, 7:3). God’s statement that He will harden Pharoah’s heart does not necessitate that God is the immediate cause of the hardening. It is an acknowledgement that Pharoah will reject the work of God enough times that there will be no remedy for his sin, and at that point, God will do it. This is in keeping with passages like Hebrews 3:12 that warn us not to harden our hearts against the Lord (which is written to a mixed audience of both Jewish seekers and new Christians).
Furthermore, in the Old Testament, Moses, Saul, Joshua, David, Solomon, Isaiah, and Jeremiah all make statements regarding the necessity of keeping our heart pure or performing some kind of actions in order to receive His favor or His blessing. Why would they make conditional statements about things like “putting away the idols from among you” if there is no such thing as choice? Is God a liar? Is He so limited that He must have the inspired writers use a term like ‘choose’ when that isn’t what He means because it’s what we will understand?

This is also before you bring passages like Genesis 6:6 into play, where God “regretted that He had made man on the Earth…”. If God creates man and man is sinning to the extent that God is grieved enough to destroy the world because of “God’s secret plan” (as per Boettner’s quote), then God must bear the responsibility for that. It’s the same case with Adam, whom Boettner explicitly argues must sin due to God’s Will. That’s why I posted the quote I did.

What you have denied, on the other hand, is that God “set the pieces in place so that [the death of Christ] must occur” , which the verse you quoted above, Acts 2:22, explicitly affirms, as well as Acts 4:27-28 which couldn’t be more clear. (See also the actions of Pharaoh, the actions of Joseph’s brothers, etc., etc.)

Your interpretation of Acts is, in my opinion, mistaken. The burden of the guilt in Acts 4:27 clearly falls on the choices of Herod and Pontius Pilate, not on God (otherwise, God would be listed first). Did God know what they would do? Yes! Did God use their choices in His predestined plan? Absolutely! But I have a really, really, really hard time buying into the idea that He did it in such a way that Herod and Pilate were forced, like a bad computer program, to do it. They chose their sin and will be righteously judged for it.

I get your allegation and see the force behind it. It bothers me. But I can’t believe and agree with the logical system of Calvinism (as I understand it from Boetter, Calvin, and other Calvinistic writers) without ending up at a place where I’m really a determinist, and I think that God is so much better, holier, right, and just than that.
Make sense?

[Jay] But I have a really, really, really hard time buying into the idea that He did it in such a way that Herod and Pilate were forced, like a bad computer program, to do it. They chose their sin and will be righteously judged for it.

I’m not sure what it is about Calvinism that causes you to insist that we believe that God forces people to do evil against their own will, with the implication that if He didn’t force them, they would choose to do good.

We do not!

As many have showed above, we insist that the evil men do comes out of their own evil intent and they are responsible and will be judged for that evil, which you agree with.

We further insist that God’s purposes are accomplished through that evil, and have presented many passages that establish that truth.

The only other option, to my way of thinking, is that evil has no purpose and God is just reacting to such evil to make it turn out for good. We do not find that notion fits the text of Scripture.

God determines everything even to the color of socks we wear as all of it serves a purpose. There was a tv commercial some years ago where a fellow wore a certain pair of socks to an interview and was hired because the interviewer had on the identical pair. The commercial, without attempting to do so, understood sovereignty!

At the same time we deny that such determinism makes man into an automaton. Man freely chooses but his choice is not free in a libertarian sense, rather it is limited by his own depravity. As an example, when it’s lunchtime my free choice as to where I eat is restricted by time and money. Once I choose the place, I am further limited by the menu - I can’t get a BigMac and Coke at KFC!

Once again, I’m not sure why sovereignty and responsibility are so difficult to understand, especially when Calvinist’s agree with you on responsibility, even though your comments seem to suggest that you think we don’t, and that sovereignty and responsibility are mutually exclusive.

“If God knows it must happen (Adam’s sin and fall), then it must occur”

So if God knows it must happen, it still might not happen?

I’m not sure what it is about Calvinism that causes you to insist that we believe that God forces people to do evil against their own will, with the implication that if He didn’t force them, they would choose to do good.

We do not!

What do you mean by good? Good in the sense that they will choose to love and serve God willingly? That will not happen because we have all been marred by sin and love sin and choose sin. That’s clear from Romans 1-5.

As many have showed above, we insist that the evil men do comes out of their own evil intent and they are responsible and will be judged for that evil, which you agree with.

We further insist that God’s purposes are accomplished through that evil, and have presented many passages that establish that truth.

And I haven’t made those arguments? Is there a place where I have ever denied that God has a purpose in suffering? Now you’re arguing against something that I have never said and don’t believe. What kind of a heartless, cruel, and evil God permits suffering for no reason at all? Do we need to debate this as well?

The only other option, to my way of thinking, is that evil has no purpose and God is just reacting to such evil to make it turn out for good. We do not find that notion fits the text of Scripture.

I can’t go there, and you should know that by now. I’m no open theist - and my argument about God knowing not just will occur but all things that can occur (including the fact that I chose one specific pair of brown socks from the six pairs in my dresser last night, or even if I chose to wore them all at once or not wear any at all!) - is much superior to your argument that God is limited to only those things that must occur.

God determines everything even to the color of socks we wear as all of it serves a purpose. There was a tv commercial some years ago where a fellow wore a certain pair of socks to an interview and was hired because the interviewer had on the identical pair. The commercial, without attempting to do so, understood sovereignty!

OK, I get that, but I want to stick with Bible passages here. :)

At the same time we deny that such determinism makes man into an automaton. Man freely chooses but his choice is not free in a libertarian sense, rather it is limited by his own depravity. As an example, when it’s lunchtime my free choice as to where I eat is restricted by time and money. Once I choose the place, I am further limited by the menu - I can’t get a Big Mac and Coke at KFC!

JohnBrian, then what do you do with Boettner and Calvin’s quotes? Man acts in rebellion against God according to God’s specific, secret, and declared will? I would like an answer on that, and have wanted one from a Calvinist since grad school.

Once again, I’m not sure why sovereignty and responsibility are so difficult to understand, especially when Calvinist’s agree with you on responsibility, even though your comments seem to suggest that you think we don’t, and that sovereignty and responsibility are mutually exclusive.

I would argue that it’s because God is so much bigger than my brain is. God is all knowing - not me; I can’t fathom what it means to be truly all knowing. This is what I see as best I can put pieces together. Is it logically consistent? Probably not. Does it seem contradictory, like the age old “Can God make a rock so big he can’t lift it”? Sure. But it’s better to me to throw my hands up in the air and say “I don’t know!” than bend the philosophical knee and say, “Well, man sins because God decreed that he must and that’s the bottom line.” God is God, and knows all things, and works in accordance with all things, including my choices. I can’t synergize that if you gave me eternity, short of God deciding to tell me Himself.

I’m really interested - really interested - in someone taking a stab at synergizing the verses I posted this morning with Boettner and Calvin’s writings. Otherwise it looks like everyone is dancing around the issues that I continue to raise.

Calvinists, in general, love to write about how God decreed that Adam would choose his sin. I’ve read that many times in Reformed and Calvinistic writings.
Now, can someone give me a Bible verse that explicitly states this? Not that Adam sinned, but that God specifically decreed Adam would sin? If you can show me that, then I’m done with my objections to that logical construction.

[Larry]

“If God knows it must happen (Adam’s sin and fall), then it must occur”

So if God knows it must happen, it still might not happen?

Kind of…and this is where I am venturing onto sketchy Philosophical grounds. I wish Charlie were here to discuss it…maybe Dr. McCune can weigh in on this?

Acts 4:27-28 says that God ‘predestined’ to do what Pilate and Herod did. What is the greek term there for ‘predestined’? Is this the predestined as in “He knew and therefore decided to act in accordance with that” (which is my understanding of it) or predestined as “decreed that it must occur in that way” (as Chip and JohnBrian interpret it)? Is that term used somewhere else in the NT?

What I’m saying is that I’m not sure that there is such a thing as ‘God must’. If God is the only truly free being in the Universe (because He is the only one that is truly Faithful and True - Revelation 19:11), then is there any such thing as a ‘must’ with Him?

There are only two things that God cannot do that we see in the Bible:

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for f we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself. (2 TImothy 2:10-13)

and

Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

Jay,

Of course Judas betrayed Christ of his own decision. But Jesus Himself said that Judas’ betrayal was “determined” (Lk. 22:22; cf. Mt. 26:24; Mk. 14:21).

You are simply wrong about Pharaoh. Please look up those verses I listed again. In Ex. 4:21 and 7:3, God specifically tells Moses he will (in the future) harden Pharaoh’s heart. These verses are before the first instance of Pharaoh hardening his heart in 8:15.

Jay, let me further address this idea of “determinism” further. If by “determinism” you mean that human events are ultimately determined by causes external to the will, then yes, I believe in determinism…and I would argue that to some extent, you do too! For again, Acts 4:27-28 explicitly states that God “determined before to be done” (NKJV; “decided beforehand,” NIV; “predestined to take place,” ESV, HCSB; “predestined to occur,” NASB; the word prooridzo means “to determine beforehand or in advance; to foreordain”) the death of Christ. And not just the death of Christ in a general sense, but the specific actions of individual people including Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles (Romans), and the Jewish people (v. 27).

Do you object to the fact that the Bible explicitly states that the actions of individuals in condemning, torturing, and killing Jesus Christ were determined beforehand by God? What about their free will?

And if you don’t believe that human events are ultimately determined by God, then you need to take issue with Acts 4:28. I would also ask, what are human events ultimately determined by? Who, or what, then, is the ultimate “determiner” in the universe?

Finally, Paul anticipates and answers your objection in Rom. 9:14-24.

So again I would say that the problem is not the belief that human actions are ultimately determined by God (because to some extent you share that belief). The problem is, in your mind, that determinism also necessarily entails a belief that human beings therefore “have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.”

Several others have already addressed the “free will” aspect of this definition. Suffice it to say, that Calvinists do not believe people have ultimate free will, but they do believe that people can make real decisions.

As far as the other part of that definition, that therefore people “cannot be held morally responsible for their actions,” as time permits I will give you quotes from multiple Calvinists to prove that Calvinists do NOT believe this.

So to summarize, you keep throwing out the word “determinism” as a trump card, as if we Calvinists deny that we believe God determines everything. We don’t deny that. But the problem you seem to have with determinism is that it removes all human responsibility. We have said over and over that it does not remove human responsibility. So in that sense we do NOT…AGAIN, WE DO NOT believe in determinism as you have presented it. The quotes from Boettner and Calvin talk about God determining things, but they do not prove this “determinism” straw man that you are presenting which removes all human responsibility.

“Hence man stumbled according as God had ordained, but he stumbled through his own fault…For although in God’s eternal providence man was created to experience his present misery, he nevertheless owed its substance to himself and not to God. He is lost for no other reason than that, from the pure nature which God gave him, he has fallen into evil.”
(Calvin, John. Institutes of the Christian Religion. Edited by Robert White. 1541 edition. [Carlisle, PA: Banner of Truth, 2014] , 479-81)

“This divine activity [providence, God’s sovereign control and direction of all things] accompanies the action of man at every point, but without robbing man in any way of his freedom. The action remains the free act of man, an act for which he is held responsible.”

(Berkhof, Louis. Systematic Theology. New ed. [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1996] , 173).