Doug Wilson - A Theology of Resistance for Florists

Joel, I’m assuming you would recognize the limits on the Scriptural commands to obey government, correct? For we must “obey God rather than man.” Here’s how I balance this:

• We must obey government except when it commands something God forbids or forbids something God commands. Does that apply in this situation? Well of course not if you look at like “God doesn’t say, ‘Thou shalt not bake cakes for homosexuals.’” But what if the baker is looking at like this, “The Bible tells me not to ‘approve of those who practice’ homosexuality (Rom. 1:32). I believe baking a cake is a celebration and approval of a wedding. Therefore, I must obey God rather than men because the state is commanding me to do something God forbids.”
• Paul, the same apostle who told us to obey all governing authorities, still appealed to his Roman citizenship to avoid flogging and appealed to Caesar to avoid the Jewish plot against him. So even as we obey the government we still have every right to use every legal means in our favor. Why shouldn’t the baker use the court system to protest this decision?

Who said: “but rather the celebration of sin with sinners. “

This is my problem. I don’t see how baking a cake … selling it to whomever … is celebrating with them.

• “do you believe she should be punished (fined, license revoked, etc.) for refusing to bake the cake?” / Answer: It doesn’t matter what I believe about this .. the process has already decided (I guess it may be appealed)
• “Do you deny her that liberty of conscience?” Answer: I have not denied her liberty of conscience.

This to me is much more of a political issue than a spiritual one. A business owner should be able to refuse to do business with anyone for whatever reason they want.

If the baker in question wanted to withhold their products from someone because they have blonde hair they should have the right to do so. It just so happens that the reason the baker made the decision is a spiritual one.

[josh p]

A business owner should be able to refuse to do business with anyone for whatever reason they want.

…is that if enough people completely believed that, it could lead us right back to this:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/court_photographer_who_wouldnt_w…

In Thursday’s ruling, the New Mexico court said the state’s anti-discrimination law doesn’t violate free speech guarantees in this case because the law doesn’t compel “Elane Photography to either speak a government-mandated message or to publish the speech of another.” Indeed, the court noted that Elane Photography could advertise that its owners are personally opposed to same-sex marriage.“Businesses that choose to be public accommodations must comply with the NMHRA, although such businesses retain their First Amendment rights to express their religious or political beliefs,” the court concluded.

[Jim] “At what point do you take a stand?”

My response: Not over a cake.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

At what point, Jim, do you take a stand?

Answering Jay:

• You seem to be suggesting … not actually … you are saying that I am a compromiser!
• I resent that!
• I have been very clear about my views of marriage. I have 40 years of a Biblically patterned marriage to my credit (12/28/1974). Sodomy (gay sex) is sin. They will be judged for this.

[Jim]

Who said: “but rather the celebration of sin with sinners. “

This is my problem. I don’t see how baking a cake … selling it to whomever … is celebrating with them.

• “do you believe she should be punished (fined, license revoked, etc.) for refusing to bake the cake?” / Answer: It doesn’t matter what I believe about this .. the process has already decided (I guess it may be appealed)
• “Do you deny her that liberty of conscience?” Answer: I have not denied her liberty of conscience.

Who asked many questions:

Do you agree with the decision to punish her? In other words, was it the correct decision? Please don’t answer that it doesn’t matter what you believe. Of course it doesn’t matter what any of us believe; the court isn’t going to change its opinion because of what we say here on Sharper Iron. We are asking for your opinion: Do you think the court made the right decision? Do you think the baker is wrong to appeal and fight the court’s decision rather than to just submit to it?

• Do you agree with the decision to punish her? In other words, was it the correct decision? Answered: I think that non-discrimination in commerce should apply to all citizens regardless of race, religion, and sexual preference. I think the baker was wrong to not sell to all paying customers. I think she could have handled this more deftly. And I do think there should be legal ramifications. Sounds like what the AG offered was appropriate.
• Do you think the court made the right decision? Answer: Yes
• Do you think the baker is wrong to appeal and fight the court’s decision rather than to just submit to it? Answer: No.
• My final comment: I don’t think she will get far with an appeal

Jim, In your mind, is there anything a court could not compel a person to do in terms of commerce?

…..it’s worth noting that businesses had to be compelled to choose either white or black trade, and the like, by the law, under Jim Crow. So Jim Crow was two steps from what we have today; not only was it not prohibited to discriminate in this way openly (more or less our law now), but they also had laws requiring them to discriminate.

And for what it’s worth, businesses do have ways of discriminating against groups they don’t want to do business with. You can get a whites only restaurant, effectively, simply by hanging up a lot of confederate battle flags, no? Biker bars are infamous for the ways they indicate that those not in “motorcycle clubs” are not welcome, and respectable businesses “nudge” young people out at times by playing high pitched noise that older people cannot hear.

[Larry]

Jim, In your mind, is there anything a court could not compel a person to do in terms of commerce?

I can’t answer this … sorry,

I’ve been pretty forthright about my views of the case of the baker, the photog, and the florist.

Someone PM‘d me to say my view is a slippery slope to ministers being compelled to do gay marriages. I don’t think so.

….my gut feeling is that just as Paul would buy meat and wine from the markets after it had been offered to pagan gods, God won’t judge us for doing business with sinners, especially since that’s us.

But that said, I agree that Christian businessmen do have a responsibility to carefully consider what products are offered. Refusing certain messages on cakes (like the store that refused to decorate a birthday cake for a kid whose parents had named him “Adolf Hitler”) is a great start, as is refusing to stock some kinds of cake toppers.

The difficult thing would be to be a musician or caterer, I’d think. Then you’ve got to be there, and you’d have to be careful to say “such and such is not on the playlist.”

[Jim]

Answering Jay:

• You seem to be suggesting … not actually … you are saying that I am a compromiser!
• I resent that!
• I have been very clear about my views of marriage. I have 40 years of a Biblically patterned marriage to my credit (12/28/1974). Sodomy (gay sex) is sin. They will be judged for this.

How on earth did you get an accusation of compromise from what I said?

From this:

[Jay]

Jim wrote:

“At what point do you take a stand?”

My response: Not over a cake.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

At what point, Jim, do you take a stand?