”Bible Churches” often do a better job of striking a balance of commitment to both “Truth” and “Love.”

So quickly just to give a bit more light:

1. In our case we have been more of an IFCA Bible kind of a church for 10 years. While being Baptist in denomination, we are much more Bible Church in attitude, feel, sub-culture, preferences, polity, etc…….In one sense this is sort of like “truth in advertising.”

2. We are still very much baptist in belief. We are also Dispensational in Hermeneutics, Historically fundamental (with a small f), Reformed in Theology), Calvinistic in Soteriology, We are mixed in Worship between Hymns and some newer music, we are largely Nouthetic in our counseling approach, the best people in our church are confident Barnabas wrote Hebrews……..So you see the delima - which of those do you put on the “sign?” “Bible” - it’s a good option.

3. The third reality is that we look around and we just don’t have as much in common with most of the Independent Baptist types and what they are passionate about (Flannel Graph, KJV, Must have Garlock- or Hamilton plus Hymns only, Supporting 2 or 3 Christian Institutions because everyone else and I mean everyone is a compromiser!”, Jesus would “Home School Too!” and other belief’s)……and we also don’t have as much in common with the Southern Baptist Types (Messenger here, Messenger there, Messengers everywhere!). We do have a lot in common with the IFCA Bible Church type.

I don’t know if that helps ….. but there you go.

Straight Ahead!

jt

It says you are the senior pastor of Southeast Valley Baptist Church!

Fine. No skin off my back. But why insult independent fundamental baptists to justify it?

Mark,

I was having fun with the flannel graph, etc…..I’m sorry you took that as a real insult(s).

My interaction is almost never about justification. We have all we need internally within our autonomous congregation and our understanding of the Scriptures and it’s application to our assembly to justify that which we are doing. Mark this is what in part it means for us to still be Baptist. While I care for my brothers and sisters here at SI, ultimately I don’t care what you or anyone here thinks when I’m confident we are honoring Heaven with the decision in question. My initial motivation was simply to let folks know about the change and give my friends here at SI a short statement as to some of the core reasons for the decision. What matters to us as a congregation is the opinion of Heaven and the members of our assembly. However - because you opened the door let me walk through it. When I interact with these kinds of topics to the degree that you would take as “insult,” usually it’s my attempt to influence. When you and I disagree with something…..if I really care about it and I don’t want others to agree with your position, I’ll do what I can do to shed light on the foolishness or shortsightedness of your view in hopes that I can influence others towards a better way. Hopefully I’m not cruel. If I came off as cruel that is not my attempt. Sometimes I will use satire….maybe even some sarcasm. I want to make sure that is kept in check. Mark…. I see my comments here at SI as an extension of my pulpit ministry…..my ministry with IBL and even connected with other wings of my ministry such as my book. I see these kinds of things as opportunities for influence. So I share our decision to change the name, not only to communicate a move on our part but to continue to do my part to encourage those who partake in unhealthy forms of ecclesiastical ministry to consider a different way. In the end you don’t have to do or agree with me for us to have a mutually encouraging relationship. Those that know me know that to be so. There’s always an open spot next to me here at the SI round-table campfire. I’m always happy to share some cider and a marshmallow……when I’m not preoccupied on my Lawn 4000!

Straight Ahead!

jt

I have never had a single unsaved person reached by our church for whom our church name (it’s Baptist) was a draw or a deterrent. It would be a very rare unsaved person who would think that to be Baptist would mean all that Joel has associated with it. If they don’t know the gospel, they surely don’t know the other things Joel has connected with the Baptist name. The name is only meaningful for those already in the church, it means nothing to those outside of it who are without Christ.

I am not offended in any way. As a matter of fact, I have nothing to do with your church. You all can call it whatever you would like.

Offended is being resentful or annoyed at a perceived insult. I am neither resentful nor annoyed. I am sad and disappointed. And it was no perceived insult.

What you do not have the right to do unchallenged is to say that “Bible church” stand for “truth and love” while “Baptist” stands for Jack Hyles, Frank Garlock, KJV-Only, and Flannel Graphs. I appreciate sarcasm (I use it a lot), but it seems to me that you went beyond that to overt criticism and mischaracterization of Baptists in general. I don’t think that is very truthful or loving, to tell you the truth, and I don’t think it sets a good example of leadership.

You all wanted to change your name, fine. You all are disappointed with many Baptists, fine. Change the name and be done with it. Why leave with a broadside?

Straight Ahead!

[josh p]

Anyone here saved in a non baptist church and eventually migrate that way due to doctrinal convictions?

I guess I am close to that, but not exactly, and not for the reasons you would imagine.

I was raised in a fundamental methodist church, which is where I accepted Christ as a child. When I went to college (BJU, founded by a methodist), the people I ran into were mostly baptists. That made me spend a lot of time evaluating what I believed and had been taught. After college and grad school, when I was looking for a church, I discovered two things: 1. fundamental methodist churches were about as scarce as hen’s teeth, especially in the area I got my first job, and 2. although I didn’t consider myself a committed baptist, of the churches that were closest to what I would consider biblical doctrine and that I would consider attending, they were all baptist. I am now in a baptist church, but like Joel’s church, it is one that is considering a name change possibly including dropping the “baptist” moniker. Seeing as how baptist in our area essentially has no meaning, as there are baptist churches that range from those that “marry” gays to those that are extreme KJVO and all the range in-between, that is a change I would support.

http://www.thekingjamesbiblechurch.com

Hopefully such a church doesn’t pop up in Phoenix, else another name change will be in order.

Suppose that you’re an unchurched individual whose heart has been moved to seek to know more about God. Suppose that you’re curious enough to look for a church where you might find some help. What words are you going to enter into your Google Machine? I’m thinking words like church, God, and probably Bible. that’s been our experience with people who’ve found our church. It seems that those who would Google Baptist would likely already be Baptists.

I just did that, this is what came up on the first page:

http://www.biblechurchofgod.com/

www.cogic.org

www.thechurchofgod.orgCached

www.ucg.orgCached

I love and respect Joel T! We are friends. I am fine with the new name for their church. A local congregation of saints should have the liberty to call themselves ‘whatever.’ (One observation I have made is that it seems to me that believers have not called themselves by any name as much as unbelievers giving names to the believers)

I have felt some of what Mark Smith has identified. Knowing Joel, I am sure that he is not trying to cast aspersions on any one. The church I shepherd is a baptist church. Here in rural CO, (eat your hearts out!) the average person does not care what the name of a church is.

In his insightful book, ‘Surprising Insights of the Unchurched, and How to Reach Them’, Thom Rainer notes that the unchurched do not attend our churches because of the name.

Not sure about the ‘love and truth’ statement in headings. My family was searching for a church home about 18 years ago in the Tulsa, OK area. We found a Bible church that was most unfriendly. The friendliest (genuinely welcoming) church was Southern Baptist. For the sake of our family’s needs we became a part of a godly Bible church (different from the one mentioned)

One last observation. I observed a junior teacher using Flannel Graph and the 45 boys and girls were in awe (in a good way!)

A rose by any other name blooms ……

Per Ron’s comment and Jonathan’s response, it strikes me that we ought not wait on Google to bring people to us. Yes, name ourselves appropriately so a search will come up OK, but let’s not rely on it. Not that I was accusing anyone of doing so!

And on the flip side of Ron’s comment, I’ve heard people up this way use “Baptist” in a good way, along the lines of “they believe the Bible”, along with the bad way.

One off topic (sort of ) note; Jonathan’s link to the church with the “Vice Bishop” reminds me of a story my mom told about a Chinese student she went to college with. The student had become an officer at the co-op where they lived, and at one meeting, introduced herself as the “vice house president.” It was my mom’s task to explain graciously to her that a “vice house president” and a “house vice president” were two very different things. :^)

Yeah, if it were me, I’d put the kibosh on the title of “Vice Bishop” for that and many other reasons. Seems to reflect the title mania of the world and the tragedies with abusive priests a little too much for my taste.