Pope: "Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve"

Mark, no one is denying the Andromeda Galaxy is 2.5 million ly away. The question is whether that automatically means the universe is at least 2.5 million years old.

[Mark_Smith]

You said you have a Bible verse that says the universe has appearance of age and hence isn’t deceptive. Where are Type II supernovas defined in the bible? I can show you pictures of supernova remnants that are hundreds of thousands of years old. Did that star that exploded ever exist?

Your own assertion proves my point. Can you declare with certainty that star ever existed? No. You were not there. You assume it existed based on your worldview and presuppositions, including uniformitarianism. On the other hand, I know with certainty from scripture that unifromitarianism is not a universal truth because God created. What is, and was, at one point was not; it suddenly came into being. Furthermore, I also know from scripture that all the physical universe will one day cease to exist again. The appearance of uniformitarianism does not prove anything beyond, perhaps, what is presently observable and is demonstrably a limited phenomenon that was not happening at one point in the past and will cease to happen some time in the future.

How does one measure the Andromeda galaxy to be 2.5 million ly away? Do you know? I am not being critical, I am simply asking if you know.

I agree believe it or not. If the universe you assert is reality, then outer space and the universe is a cartoon that means nothing. There is nothing to learn by studying it. Nothing you see represents something that really happened.

I assume that is ridiculous on its face.

If Gen. 2.4-7 gives another version that should indicate to the interpreter metaphorical language in the poetic section of 1.1-2.3.

Moses does not claim authorship of Genesis but he did authenticate it. These texts were handed down as clay tablets from the internal evidence. Gen. 1.1-2.3 is unprecedented. It was written by God Himself and recorded for us. Later interpreters cannot just subject this poetic section to their own expectations by applying language rules to it which may not be warranted. I believe how God created the universe to be a mystery but it is certainly billions of tears old by the evidence. All truth is God’s truth. If our measurements say the universe is “old” we should go with that try to figure out Gen. 1 from that point. To bring an early earth to Gen. 1 is a presuppositional bias in my book.

Actually, declaring Genesis 1-2 to be poetry is a presuppositional bias that does not jibe with the way the rest of scripture treats that particular portion of text. Instead, all of scripture treats Gen. 1-2 with the same literal interpretation that is used for the rest of the communication God has given us.

[Chip Van Emmerik]

Actually, declaring Genesis 1-2 to be poetry is a presuppositional bias that does not jibe with the way the rest of scripture treats that particular portion of text. Instead, all of scripture treats Gen. 1-2 with the same literal interpretation that is used for the rest of the communication God has given us.

Besides the evidence of metaphorical language of 1.1-2.3 from 2.4-7, the structure of this section clearly points to a poetical device. These two indications are about all one can say definitively. Later biblical literature conventions can not be applied to Gen. 1. What “rest of scripture” treats this particular text? None.

The fact that no biblical writer has referred to this section should give pause to modern interpreters. How God created the universe is a mystery. I, by faith, accept that He created it and also accept not now knowing the secret. The Early Earthers want to dogmatically make their teaching a tenet of orthodoxy. I say don’t do such a misguided thing, its a trap that is sure to ship wreak someone’s faith after they find out, by all credible accounts, that the earth is old.

[alex o.]

The fact that no biblical writer has referred to this section should give pause to modern interpreters. How God created the universe is a mystery. I, by faith, accept that He created it and also accept not now knowing the secret. The Early Earthers want to dogmatically make their teaching a tenet of orthodoxy. I say don’t do such a misguided thing, its a trap that is sure to ship wreak someone’s faith after they find out, by all credible accounts, that the earth is old.

Wow, that’s a first. No biblical writers refer to Genesis 1? Well, if you’re looking for a passage that says, “Genesis 1 says…” then you’re right. But how about one of the most important passages in all of the Torah:

Ex 20:8-11
Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. NIV

Or does that not count because it’s still Moses? (Not sure why any truth in Scripture has to be verified by another author in Scripture for it to be true.)

[Greg Long]

Wow, that’s a first. No biblical writers refer to Genesis 1? Well, if you’re looking for a passage that says, “Genesis 1 says…” then you’re right. But how about one of the most important passages in all of the Torah:

Ex 20:8-11
Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. NIV

Or does that not count because it’s still Moses? (Not sure why any truth in Scripture has to be verified by another author in Scripture for it to be true.)

This text is God referencing what He Himself said. He is not stating the earth is 6000 years old but giving instructions about the Sabbath. I believe in a historic Adam.

Jesus says “in the beginning God made them male and female” but He never said the universe began 6000 years ago.

[alex o.]

The fact that no biblical writer has referred to this section should give pause to modern interpreters. How God created the universe is a mystery. I, by faith, accept that He created it and also accept not now knowing the secret. The Early Earthers want to dogmatically make their teaching a tenet of orthodoxy. I say don’t do such a misguided thing, its a trap that is sure to ship wreak someone’s faith after they find out, by all credible accounts, that the earth is old.

Correction: not Early Earther but Young Earther. I’ve made this mistake here before and didn’t correct it. This forum is the only place I speak about Young Earth, but I think everyone here knew what I was talking about.

[alex o.]

Greg Long wrote:

Wow, that’s a first. No biblical writers refer to Genesis 1? Well, if you’re looking for a passage that says, “Genesis 1 says…” then you’re right. But how about one of the most important passages in all of the Torah:

Ex 20:8-11
Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. NIV

Or does that not count because it’s still Moses? (Not sure why any truth in Scripture has to be verified by another author in Scripture for it to be true.)

This text is God referencing what He Himself said. He is not stating the earth is 6000 years old but giving instructions about the Sabbath. I believe in a historic Adam.

Jesus says “in the beginning God made them male and female” but He never said the universe began 6000 years ago.

[Mark_Smith]

I agree believe it or not. If the universe you assert is reality, then outer space and the universe is a cartoon that means nothing. There is nothing to learn by studying it. Nothing you see represents something that really happened.

I assume that is ridiculous on its face.

Mark, I sympathize with your position, I really do. It is one of the reasons why I have encouraged you to continue posting even when you get frustrated with some of us. Nevertheless, I think you are unduly concerned about the implications of creating a universe with appearance of age. I understand what you are saying but it just doesn’t bother me like it bothers you. For at least two reasons:

God may have miraculously created the light of the universe so that we could see something that actually happened in the far universe. The very first thing God creates is light, even before anything else physically existed – what we would see if we could have seen those first rays of light? It’s sort of fascinating to me…but the fact of the matter is that if we believe God can speak and create light, then why couldn’t he do so in a way that would allow his creation to immediately see the stars and the other cosmological events that you speak of?

There are other miracles that demand a non-existent backstory – things that never existed – yet I doubt you have problems with those miracles. Think about when Jesus turned the water into wine – wine requires grapes that came from a seed, that grew, were harvested, processed, stored, aged, etc. I’m not a biologist but I suspect that a biologist might object to that wine created with an appearance of age as “nothing you see represents something that really happened.”The same could be said of the feeding of the 5000 with the loaves and fish.

[Greg Long]

alex o. wrote:

Greg Long wrote:

Wow, that’s a first. No biblical writers refer to Genesis 1? Well, if you’re looking for a passage that says, “Genesis 1 says…” then you’re right. But how about one of the most important passages in all of the Torah:

Ex 20:8-11
Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. NIV

Or does that not count because it’s still Moses? (Not sure why any truth in Scripture has to be verified by another author in Scripture for it to be true.)

This text is God referencing what He Himself said. He is not stating the earth is 6000 years old but giving instructions about the Sabbath. I believe in a historic Adam.

Jesus says “in the beginning God made them male and female” but He never said the universe began 6000 years ago.

Of course Ex. 20 doesn’t mention 6000 years. But in it God clearly states that He created the entire universe in six (literal) days. Once you land on six literal days, as I believe Gen. 1 and Ex. 20 so clearly state, it becomes quite difficult to avoid a young earth conclusion.