The Problem with Praise Teams

Ultimately the Bible gives us support for one music claim. It has to be true.

This, like many statements made in these kinds of discussions seems to conflate the lyrics with the actual music. These are two separate arts. If I misunderstand you, though, it might be helpful for you to explain how music can be true.

[DavidO]

Ultimately the Bible gives us support for one music claim. It has to be true.

This, like many statements made in these kinds of discussions seems to conflate the lyrics with the actual music. These are two separate arts. If I misunderstand you, though, it might be helpful for you to explain how music can be true.

I’m sorry, David. I should have elaborated. The above claim would apply to the lyrics. I have not heard or found any claims, for musical scores, that have legitimate biblical support. Opinions and preferences abound.

[M Leslie]

JD Miller wrote:

I do not want to sound sarcastic with my next question. I am definitely curious as to others thoughts on this. As we discuss the quality of music, I got to thinking about the differences in our spoken language. Is the English language as spoken by someone from England of a higher quality than the English language spoken by someone from Alabama? If it is, should the person from Alabama work on changing their accent so that each time they speak they are better able to glorify God? I understand that these are not apples to apples, but it just got me to thinking.

That goes in the same direction I was thinking, JD. The culturally conservative I’ve talked with have made it clear that western society’s classical music forms are the pinnacle of all that is good in music. I’ve been wondering if that is the same direction Bert is ultimately going. Maybe not. In my friends circles, Bach is good, and Folk is questionable. For my friends, classical sets the standard by which every church should conform.

Ultimately the Bible gives us support for one music claim. It has to be true.

Well, count me decidedly not in the “one music only” camp—my personal collection includes classical from organ to opera, bluegrass, country & western, old time (accordion, etc..) music (in Hebrew, German, Polish, Slovenian, Czech, and even English), black gospel, jazz, Weird Al, and an obscure group of Liverpudians. There are good and bad examples of each genre, and what separates the good from the bad, assuming that both have a reasonably Biblical message, is their poetic and musical presentation.

To draw a picture, get a decent pianist, and have them play Wagner’s wedding march. The first time, have him do it just loud and fast, and without using his (her) left hand—don’t complete the chords. The next time, let him use dynamics, choose an appropriate pace, and use his left hand to complete the chords. The effect will be entirely different.

See what I’m getting at? I am not saying that every song-writer must be a Shakespeare, or every composer a Mozart, or every musician Joshua Bell, but it makes an incredible difference when one considers how the poetry and music interact with the words.

Another example; you can sing “Amazing Grace” to the “Gilligan’s Island” theme song, “Yellow Rose of Texas”, and “House of the Rising Sun”. Metrically, it works; musically, it’s debatable, especially for the first two—the “bouncy” music counters the wonder that we ought to have regarding His amazing grace, no?

Another example; find and sing Psalm 1 from an edition of the metric Psalms (the Patch the Pirate guy actually did a nice version), and then try to do the same from your favorite translation of the Bible. Any genre, classical to hymns to bluegrass to heavy metal, you’ll see the difference.

[Bert Perry]

Well, count me decidedly not in the “one music only” camp—my personal collection includes classical from organ to opera, bluegrass, country & western, old time (accordion, etc..) music (in Hebrew, German, Polish, Slovenian, Czech, and even English), black gospel, jazz, Weird Al, and an obscure group of Liverpudians. There are good and bad examples of each genre, and what separates the good from the bad, assuming that both have a reasonably Biblical message, is their poetic and musical presentation.

To draw a picture, get a decent pianist, and have them play Wagner’s wedding march. The first time, have him do it just loud and fast, and without using his (her) left hand—don’t complete the chords. The next time, let him use dynamics, choose an appropriate pace, and use his left hand to complete the chords. The effect will be entirely different.

See what I’m getting at? I am not saying that every song-writer must be a Shakespeare, or every composer a Mozart, or every musician Joshua Bell, but it makes an incredible difference when one considers how the poetry and music interact with the words.

Bert, it seems to me the problem with all of your logical arguments about musical tastes is that they would reject a lot of the music that Christians around the world use to worship God.

Also, while I understand your arguments about the importance of using music to enhance recall and memorization, we must remember that the styles of music that will do so are somewhat culturally conditioned. I’m guessing, Bert, that you would not be a fan of using rap music, but many people think it helps in the recall of complicated strings of words. Maybe Joel Schaffer can speak more to this.

Daniel Radcliffe Raps Blackalicious’ “Alphabet Aerobics”

I’m just saying that I’m not sure how far you want to push that argument, and that it is still somewhat subjective.

[Greg Long]…we must remember that the styles of music that will do so are somewhat culturally conditioned.

In keeping with the prevailing proposition here, namely, that we cannot know anything about music the Bible does not tell us, how can you be sure of the above?

Uh, who said that? Certainly not me.

I didn’t mean to imply you expressly said it. I said it seemed to me to be prevailing in the posts above.

[DavidO]

…we cannot know anything about music the Bible does not tell us…

I didn’t mean to imply you expressly said it. I said it seemed to me to be prevailing in the posts above.

Really? I haven’t seen that prevailing at all. We can know a lot that the Bible does not tell us, but there is a difference between general and special revelation. The latter has authority.

Once again, I’m going to point out that my personal music collection goes from Weird Al to Widor. No way I am outright rejecting music styles, nor does the claim make any sense in light of what I’ve said. Regarding rap, there is actually some that I like (starting with some of Mr. Yankovic), and it’s worth noting that rap that “works” for the listener is at its heart music that pays attention to its poetry and musical setting.

Just like the Bible, really. Now it is absolutely true that you will not get the principles of poetry and music spelled out verse by verse in the Bible. Along the same lines, neither will you find rules for good exegesis, hermeneutics, and formation of OT/NT/Biblical/Systematic theologies spelled out in the Scripture, either. Do we then throw out all our books of theology?

Of course not; we simply learn to approach and interpret the Bible as a book, no? And to do this, we start asking questions and drawing inferences. Psalms is written in poetic style; Exodus mostly in prose. What difference does it make? Why did the Author do this? Is there significance to common Greek being used for most of the NT instead of high, classical Greek?

One can, and should, go on and on, and the process we’re following is the literary analysis of a book, no? Part of that analysis in the large portion of the Bible (Job, Psalms, Proverbs, the Prophets, etc..) written in poetic form. OK, let’s look at the elements of poetry—rhyme, meter, alliteration, metaphor, simile, and the like. All of these are going to have something to do with the meaning imparted—Dr. Bauder wrote a wonderful bit once where he described a theological truth in limerick form and pointed out why this was inappropriate—the limerick is generally a silly, mocking form.

In other words, the responsible exegete does exactly the same thing with Scripture that I propose we do with music. He looks at its form, its cues, and asks “how does this interact with the listener and singer?”

Now exactly what tools are used can be negotiated. Western european music didn’t use the crescendo or singing in parts until the Renaissance—listen with me to some Gregorian chants for an example of what that meant. The Bard used a lot of pentameter; most hymns do not. Rhyme can be heroic, a more complex scheme, or nonexistent. But that said, each tool has its meanings, and if we want to understand either Scriptures or music correctly, we’ll do well to learn something about it.

The setting in Ephesians doesn’t seem to be assembly but everyday life and also interaction with other Christians apart from assembly. My question is why the evangelicals (of which I also subscribe) in assembly have recently (last 50 years or so) featured so much music? The traditionalists (RCC, older Reformed groups) don’t have such a thing as praise bands but organ music which crept in earlier and is more subtle.

If we want to know how to conduct our assembly then we should look at explicit parts such as the two Timothy epistles which don’t mention music at all (that should give us the biggest hint). Am I the only one who thinks assemblies should be more cerebral teaching-wise and congregationally participatory (Lord Supper every service)? I think good contemporary Christian music should be everywhere but the assembly. Special concerts and outreach with music would be good however.

Well written songs teach. Was Paul saying in Ephesians to use songs to admonish one another in a ‘soft’ way by using music? I think so. The teaching found in well-written songs can encourage, rebuke, inspire in an non overt manner which is not so confrontational.

[Bert Perry]

-Dr. Bauder wrote a wonderful bit once where he described a theological truth in limerick form and pointed out why this was inappropriate—the limerick is generally a silly, mocking form.

[M Leslie]

Really? I haven’t seen that prevailing at all. We can know a lot that the Bible does not tell us, but there is a difference between general and special revelation. The latter has authority.

Both general and special revelation are equally authoritative because they both come from God and therefore possess His authority. What you are referring to, though, is not general revelation but human analysis of music, which of course, does not come directly from God and therefore does not carry with it the same authority as divine revelation — which is your point.

[AndyE]

M Leslie wrote:

Really? I haven’t seen that prevailing at all. We can know a lot that the Bible does not tell us, but there is a difference between general and special revelation. The latter has authority.

Both general and special revelation are equally authoritative because they both come from God and therefore possess His authority. What you are referring to, though, is not general revelation but human analysis of music, which of course, does not come directly from God and therefore does not carry with it the same authority as divine revelation — which is your point.

While both types of revelation have the same source, they do not carry the same authority simply because of clarity and purpose. General revelation is, by definition, much more vague than special revelation, and much less precise in it’s nature. For instance, general revelation tells us there is a Creator God to whom the creation is responsible. Special revelation tells us we are accountable before God for our rebellion against specific commands of God and can only come into right relationship with God through faith in the atoning substitutionary work of the God man Jesus.